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R+L=J v.84


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#1 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 05:59 AM

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
 For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option. 

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
 Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon careWho cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

 

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

 

Spoiler


Edited by J. Stargaryen, 15 June 2014 - 06:00 AM.


#2 robb stark of the north

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:43 AM

Personally i want this theory to be true it would give interessting plot to the books.

 

And i would admire Ned because he would be the most honourable man ever.



#3 oliverhate

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:46 AM

im ok with this being true but i really really hate just about everyone on tho forum taking it as a given, and if you say like jon snow they say 'don't you mean jon targaryen?' 

 

idk really gives me the shits



#4 robb stark of the north

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:51 AM

of course it isn't true

 

and if it is Jon will still be a bastard ,won't he;



#5 jon Rhaegar stark

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:05 AM

of course it isn't true

 

and if it is Jon will still be a bastard ,won't he;

if anything we can be sure in a song of ice and fire it is R+L=J ...and wait until the reveal of rheagar and lyanna marriage to make you believe he is trueborn


Edited by jon Rhaegar stark, 15 June 2014 - 07:05 AM.


#6 MtnLion

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:41 AM

My question was resolved early in Feast, when I was finally provided the clue that allowed me to dissect the conversation at the tower of joy.  To read the notes on each sentence and really understand that bit of very clever writing follow the link in my signature.  



#7 Sir Dominus

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:00 AM

My question was resolved early in Feast, when I was finally provided the clue that allowed me to dissect the conversation at the tower of joy.  To read the notes on each sentence and really understand that bit of very clever writing follow the link in my signature.  


I love coming on here and having people such as yourself, find more subtle hints that reinforces this fact.

#8 Jam On Toast

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:00 AM

All evidence points to R+L=J. The trouble is, this has been known for so long that people start doubting themselves and come up with other theories. I enjoy reading them all, but would be surprised if this theory was not true.



#9 LadyLiz

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:02 AM

I believe this theory is true, my question is how can it be confirmed?  Bran seems to be the best bet but it is still a bit iffy.



#10 Ellfoy

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:30 AM

Can we start a "How did you figure it out R+L=J ?" tour ?

 

I watched the first two seasons before reading the books and I get spoiled Jon Snow 's parentage on the internet so I would never know if I could have figured it out on my own. It appeared really obvious when I read the books (especially in Ned's Pov), I don't think I could ever accept another explanation now.

 

Well I'm really curious to know how you figured R+L=J out. If I recall correctly, for  Ygrain or MtnLion (sorry don't remember which one) it was in a Jaime Chapter about Kingsguard duty.



#11 BearQueen87

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:42 AM

I was very confused as to why I could post in v.83...lol

 

 

I believe this theory is true, my question is how can it be confirmed?  Bran seems to be the best bet but it is still a bit iffy.

 

I think a few people will find out at the same time--Bran is likely through his visions; I think Sam might learn something in Oldtown; so it will be confirmed outside of Jon and then Jon finds out independently of both Bran and Sam---time for a trip to the crypt!

 

ETA: as far as figuring R+L = J out....I'm not sure the exact way I put the pieces together, and I didn't until my second or third reading of aGoT, I just remember thinking how odd it was that no one except Robert Baratheon was speaking ill of Rhaegar. And then, as I kept re-reading, how the "promise me, Ned" and Ned feeling like he had failed his sister didn't make sense since she was buried in Winterfell.


Edited by BearQueen87, 15 June 2014 - 08:53 AM.


#12 LadyLiz

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:47 AM

I think a few people will find out at the same time--Bran is likely through his visions; I think Sam might learn something in Oldtown; so it will be confirmed outside of Jon and then Jon finds out independently of both Bran and Sam---time for a trip to the crypt!

 

I like the idea of Sam finding out something.  It seems to me that the only people who could possibly know about R+L=J are the people who went with Ned into the ToJ.  If I am remembering correctly, everyone ends up dying except Ned and Howland Reed.  Obviously Ned dies later so Howland Reed is the only person left who could account for R+L=J 



#13 BearQueen87

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:52 AM

 

I like the idea of Sam finding out something.  It seems to me that the only people who could possibly know about R+L=J are the people who went with Ned into the ToJ.  If I am remembering correctly, everyone ends up dying except Ned and Howland Reed.  Obviously Ned dies later so Howland Reed is the only person left who could account for R+L=J 

 

Yup. I think Howland Reed has to enter the series at some point. He may not sit down and tell Jon directly about his parents but he could point him in the right direction. It would also be a good way to hear about the full battle at the ToJ



#14 Ellfoy

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:58 AM

 

 

ETA: as far as figuring R+L = J out....I'm not sure the exact way I put the pieces together, and I didn't until my second or third reading of aGoT, I just remember thinking how odd it was that no one except Robert Baratheon was speaking ill of Rhaegar. And then, as I kept re-reading, how the "promise me, Ned" and Ned feeling like he had failed his sister didn't make sense since she was buried in Winterfell.

So, no Eureka moment ?



#15 LadyLiz

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:59 AM

 

Yup. I think Howland Reed has to enter the series at some point. He may not sit down and tell Jon directly about his parents but he could point him in the right direction. It would also be a good way to hear about the full battle at the ToJ

I am pretty sure that GRRM confirmed that we would see Howland Reed at some point.  While the obvious and awesome choice would be for him to meet with Jon it is also possible that he could come across another major character (ideally a Stark or Stark ally) and explain Jon's heritage.  I definitely want Catelyn to find out at some point so she knows Ned didn't betray her.



#16 jon Rhaegar stark

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:59 AM

I believe this theory is true, my question is how can it be confirmed?  Bran seems to be the best bet but it is still a bit iffy.

i believe bran will tell jon through dreams ...and others will know by many factors such as howland reed and the thing kept hidden in crypts

 

after reading the ned chapters about the promise to lyanna and vents of TOJ and bran chapter after ned died where ned wants to tell something to jon in the crypts made me believe

to confirm that i tried to google if there is any theories to confirm mine ...at first all i got was R+L=J ...i didnt know wat it was then only understood the meaning of it and became happy that people believe in wat i believe



#17 LadyLiz

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:02 AM

I had no amazing Eureka moment sadly.  Just as I started reading (a couple chapters into GoT) a friend of mine asked if I agreed with her theory of R+L=J to which I responded... wait which one is Rhaegar? Lol that said, after reading the books I am an enthusiastic supporter and have found lots of supportive evidence 



#18 BearQueen87

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:08 AM

So, no Eureka moment ?

 

There was no Eureka moment for me, sadly. It just sorta slid into my head very slowly.

 

What was a Eureka moment (sort of) for me happened a few weeks ago. I joined this forum and started poking my nose into the R+L = J thread of the time--but was too scared to comment--and there was some talk about Rhaegar and Lyanna being married and that hadn't even ever occured to me but now it just makes total sense.



#19 Ellfoy

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:09 AM

I had no amazing Eureka moment sadly.  Just as I started reading (a couple chapters into GoT) a friend of mine asked if I agreed with her theory of R+L=J to which I responded... wait which one is Rhaegar? Lol that said, after reading the books I am an enthusiastic supporter and have found lots of supportive evidence 

 

Your friend should have at least let you finish aGoT before asking you that... At least when someone spoiled it to me in a youtube comment, I have already watched the first season and I did remember who were Rhaegar and Lyanna.  :) 



#20 Alia Atreides

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:16 AM

 

There was no Eureka moment for me, sadly. It just sorta slid into my head very slowly.

 

What was a Eureka moment (sort of) for me happened a few weeks ago. I joined this forum and started poking my nose into the R+L = J thread of the time--but was too scared to comment--and there was some talk about Rhaegar and Lyanna being married and that hadn't even ever occured to me but now it just makes total sense.

 

 

I never put the marriage thing together myself until a long time later after even re-reads of all the books.  I always got that was most likely the secret Lyanna asked Ned to keep for her.