R+L=J v.84

[Alia of the knife]

The turning point for me was the why of Ned NOT telling Jon about his mother, which led me to really consider who she might be, which then led me to investigate the forums.

And to all the dad's out there, happy fathers day :)

[Alia Atreides]

The turning point for me was the why of Ned NOT telling Jon about his mother, which led me to really consider who she might be, which then led me to investigate the forums.

And to all the dad's out there, happy fathers day :)

yes! me too so much was made out Ned's honor and yet he brought his bastard home; I also questioned even looking at the obvious that Ned could of brought much more to Jon than say if his Mom was a low-born serving woman etc. But what Mom willing gives up her child? It brought it home to me with Gilly and how she cried the entire trip for her child that she was forced to leave behind. Between Ned's Honor and Ethical code I couldn't see him to doing that to any woman he layed with even for say an hour and never again to be that cruel and take their child.

It didn't fit with his personality at all.

[Ygrain]

yes! me too so much was made out Ned's honor and yet he brought his bastard home; I also questioned even looking at the obvious that Ned could of brought much more to Jon than say if his Mom was a low-born serving woman etc. But what Mom willing gives up her child? It brought it home to me with Gilly and how she cried the entire trip for her child that she was forced to leave behind. Between Ned's Honor and Ethical code I couldn't see him to doing that to any woman he layed with even for say an hour and never again to be that cruel and take their child.

It didn't fit with his personality at all.

Yes, that's another piece that fit the puzzle. Never, ever, would Ned do that to his son's mother; he would have left him with her and provided for both of them financially. He would only take the child with him if the mother was dead, and then he really has no reason not to tell.

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

Yes, that's another piece that fit the puzzle. Never, ever, would Ned do that to his son's mother; he would have left him with her and provided for both of them financially. He would only take the child with him if the mother was dead, and then he really has no reason not to tell.

Nothing proves R+L=J more than that.

[Alia of the knife]

yes! me too so much was made out Ned's honor and yet he brought his bastard home; I also questioned even looking at the obvious that Ned could of brought much more to Jon than say if his Mom was a low-born serving woman etc. But what Mom willing gives up her child? It brought it home to me with Gilly and how she cried the entire trip for her child that she was forced to leave behind. Between Ned's Honor and Ethical code I couldn't see him to doing that to any woman he layed with even for say an hour and never again to be that cruel and take their child.

It didn't fit with his personality at all.

Right. For him to keep that secret, it would be to protect a woman that likely everyone already knew, or suspected if Ned was the father.

[LadyLiz]

With Jon's whole storyline and the path it will take in the future this might not be true... but you almost wonder if he even is that preoccupied by it anymore. Pre-wall Jon Snow wanted to know but I think he kind of stopped thinking about his mom when he met Ygritte. Don't get me wrong I'm sure he will still be interested in knowing but he doesn't seem to care as much anymore...

[BearQueen87]

I know this is known but I love re-reading and seeing things like this

Currently re-reading ACoK and just finished the chatper where Cat confronts Jamie and Jamie tells about Brandon and Rickard and how Aerys killed them in a such a horrifying manner.

Jamie says:

After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said, "You swore an vow to gaurd the king, not to judge him." That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree.

And this takes me back to aGoT where Ned remarks how he missed the White Bull (and the other two KGs) on the Trident as Rhaegar fell and died.

So we're expected to believe that the White Bull was so loyal to his vows to defend the guard and defend the King that he wouldn't be at his Prince's side because he was guarding a hostage? No. Why else would he be at the ToJ instead of fighting by Rhaegar's side...

:) Just a little something as I re-read

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

BearQueen87, I'm reading ACoK right now, too! :)

Can we start a "How did you figure it out R+L=J ?" tour ?

I watched the first two seasons before reading the books and I get spoiled Jon Snow 's parentage on the internet so I would never know if I could have figured it out on my own. It appeared really obvious when I read the books (especially in Ned's Pov), I don't think I could ever accept another explanation now.

Well I'm really curious to know how you figured R+L=J out. If I recall correctly, for Ygrain or MtnLion (sorry don't remember which one) it was in a Jaime Chapter about Kingsguard duty.

I'm one of the newest forum members. I watched and enjoyed 3 full seasons of the show before picking up AGoT (judge away), and by the end of AGoT, I had a strong hunch. Writers don't make random bastards viewpoint characters unless there's a good reason. And then I feel that Ned's POV toward the end all but give it away.

Ran straight to my book reading friends and said, "Jon's the dead prince and Ned's sister's baby, isn't he?" Of course their answer was "yep, probably."

Read further along, ran back to my friends in the middle of the series and said, "Wait a sec. Was Lyanna willing? I think it's just me, but could he have had feelings for her?" Book friends: "Um, duh."

So by the time I finished and started lurking here, I was sold on all part of R+L=J except Jon's legitimacy. Until I joined, I pretty much assumed he was Rhaegar and Lyanna's secret lovechild. And then the veterans of this thread said, "Well, actually... because Kingsguard." Which I buy until or unless we're given an alternate explanation for why three KG including their LC is hanging out at some random tower in Dorne while the dynasty they swore to protect effectively ends.

Now, I'm completely sold, especially as an avid reader of fantasy and medieval history. Jon's plot armor up until the end of Dance was incredible... we've seen multiple young heirs and princes kick the bucket, and Jon kept right on going. So I figured something was up.

I wasn't really interested in reading ASoIaF because I like the liberal use of magic, myth, and romance. I love Tolkien as much as GRRM is critical of him... the Silmarillion is one of my favorite books, what I consider "comfort reading." But the rich backstories of ASoIaF are what drew me in, starting with AGoT. The world building is some of the most incredible I've read, and I actually like the intertwined courtly intrigue of the current young generation's parents (not just R and L, but also Starks + Barristan + Ashara, Tully girls + Petyr Baelish, etc.).

Will feel trolled if R+L=J isn't true and will be bummed if Jon never finds out.

[Alia Atreides]

also and correct me if I am wrong but in ToJ she was being guarded by the Kingsguard. Now their duty is to their King and his Royal Family to die for him if necessary? But if we were to believe that Lyanna was but a hostage why would they fight to the death? But if she was mother to a future heir or had married R that would make more sense...

What I mean is would the Kingsguard still be obligated to protect Lyanna in such a way if she were just a hostage?

[BearQueen87]

also and correct me if I am wrong but in ToJ she was being guarded by the Kingsguard. Now their duty is to their King and his Royal Family to die for him if necessary? But if we were to believe that Lyanna was but a hostage why would they fight to the death? But if she was mother to a future heir or had married R that would make more sense...

What I mean is would the Kingsguard still be obligated to protect Lyanna in such a way if she were just a hostage?

I agree 100%

I can't remember which book/chapter but Jamie does remark that it was their duty to guard the Queen as well (as Aerys raped his wife) except against the King himself, or so goes Jamie's recollection.

There is no need for the KG to fight to the death for a woman who is 1) not married to your King or Prince 2) just a woman who your liege lord liked and stole in the night and 3) did not have the heir to the thone in the Tower with her.

For the KG to protect Lyanna in the manner in which they did, then there is something more going on.

As a side note: it's not just the KG. It's the LC of the KG and The Sword of the Morning (and Rhaegar's good friend), and Whent (I am struggling to remember if there was anything more to Whent besides just being KG)

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

As a side note: it's not just the KG. It's the LC of the KG and The Sword of the Morning (and Rhaegar's good friend), and Whent (I am struggling to remember if there was anything more to Whent besides just being KG)

Very true. I still don't get how Ned and his companions won.

[BearQueen87]

Very true. I still don't get how Ned and his companions won.

I'm sure we will, but I am very anxious to read the full version of that battle. It sounds like it was a very hard faught victory. Ned would have died if not for Howland Reed. Do we know who almost slayed Ned??

[RattleSnake]

I believe in this theory. I kind of figured it out myself and then I found other people who believed in it. George RR Martin is very cryptic and uses a lot of subtle symbolism in his works. He doesn't just handle straight meanings to the readers...he wants you to find them. That is way we get no straight forward statement of R+L=J. Nobody from the story says it. Ned seems to avoid it in his thoughts...but he also never refers to Jon as his son. But there are so many hints that point to the R+L=J theory. You have to read between the lines and see beyond words.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm sure we will, but I am very anxious to read the full version of that battle. It sounds like it was a very hard faught victory. Ned would have died if not for Howland Reed. Do we know who almost slayed Ned??

Dayne. Ned says Dayne would have killed him if it weren't for Howland.

As for how they won, here's one scenario.

Seven guys show up to face three.

Three guys take on one, two take on another, two take on the third.

The first guy kills two of his three opponents, but is wounded such that the third guy can finish him off. The second guy can kill one of his two opponents, but the second opponent lands a blow and the third guy from the first fight joins in, and between the two of them manage to kill the second Kingsguard.

So we're down to four guys on one. The third Kingsguard manages to kill his two original opponents. Which leaves us with two guys on one: Ned and Howland against Arthur.

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

I don't think Bran will tell Jon, nor Sam. But they will arrive at the conclusion that R+L = J independently and before Jon learns. I do think Howland Reed will play a part, though as Apple Martini (I think) pointed out in our last thread that's very classic mythic hero: Arthur, Uther, ect. And I think GRRM might avoid that. Howland Reed might give Jon a nudge in the right direction, but actually sititng him down and saying "Jon I will now explain your heritage to you, because you are the once and future king" ....not so much.

I believe Stannis, Robert, and Renly are all 1/4 Targ.

I actually pointed it out just how classical it was and I like ASOIAF because it is so different from every other book series I have read. :My dad (has read the books) is really good at figuring out the plot, but he isn't even trying to for the series. My entire family fell for what I am calling the fake main characters. Ned, Robb. They are important, just not who the story is about. My brother is still convinced that GRRM will kill off any main character.

I didn't find out until I started google searching about Jon Snow. Reading AGoT the "Promise me Ned" lines got my attention I thought GRRM would go into more detail and then Ned becomes a head shorter and I brushed them off. The person who loaned me the books when I was almost done with ADwD asked me who I thought Jon Snows parents were. So I went home and typed into google "Who is Jon Snow's mother" when I got to the bottom of the page I saw who are Jon Snow's parents. This confused me because I still thought Ned was Jon's father. I then opened whatever version of this thread it was and started reading and I was OMG. Everything started click in my mind. Including the Bael Bard story, which I thought was the song of blue roses, which google couldn't help me find because it doesn't exist. But I found it later :)

[BearQueen87]

Dayne. Ned says Dayne would have killed him if it weren't for Howland.

As for how they won, here's one scenario.

Seven guys show up to face three.

Three guys take on one, two take on another, two take on the third.

The first guy kills two of his three opponents, but is wounded such that the third guy can finish him off. The second guy can kill one of his two opponents, but the second opponent lands a blow and the third guy from the first fight joins in, and between the two of them manage to kill the second Kingsguard.

So we're down to four guys on one. The third Kingsguard manages to kill his two original opponents. Which leaves us with two guys on one: Ned and Howland against Arthur.

Thanks. Figured it had to be Dayne. Side note: but I'd love some sort of flashback in which Rhaegar and Dayne discuss the situtation.

That scenario sounds perfectly reasonable too.

I actually pointed it out just how classical it was and I like ASOIAF because it is so different from every other book series I have read. :

Oops. My bad. Props to you then :)

[Pigeon Pie]

There's another thing that came to mind on my first read: Bran's chapter after Ned's beheading, he tells Osha that he dreamed of Ned in the crypts and that the dream was disturbing and that Ned mentioned something about Jon. They go into the crypts, and when they reach Lyanna's statue of all of them, Osha asks if this is where he saw his father, and Bran says yes.

Ned told Bran something about Jon right at the foot of Lyanna's statue. I wonder what that might be...

[Lonin]

Can we start a "How did you figure it out R+L=J ?" tour ?

My route was probably slightly different than most. Several friends at work had been recommending the books for many years to me. However, I had/have a long standing reluctance to read an unfinished book series. When HBO started the TV adaptation, one of them recommended that I should watch it, and read the books if I liked the show - since grrm was almost finished with the series. I watched the second or third episode of season 1 - liked it, and started reading the books.

After I had finished reading agot, I mentioned to one of them that I had finish agot, and that I liked the book. She asked if I had figured out who the hidden princess was .... I replied hidden princess?? she said .. it's a fantasy, there are always hidden "princes, princesses, kings and queens, baby swaps too." Knowing her, I was certain that there was a baby swap to be found in agot.. I spent some time trying to figure out the baby swap while reading the next book. I stumbled upon the web site "Tower of the Hand" - one headline was "Who are Jon's parents." - Parents plural - was about all I needed to realize that Jon was the hidden prince,,, connecting the remaining dots was not hard.

[RattleSnake]

There's another thing that came to mind on my first read: Bran's chapter after Ned's beheading, he tells Osha that he dreamed of Ned in the crypts and that the dream was disturbing and that Ned mentioned something about Jon. They go into the crypts, and when they reach Lyanna's statue of all of them, Osha asks if this is where he saw his father, and Bran says yes.

Ned told Bran something about Jon right at the foot of Lyanna's statue. I wonder what that might be...

Good points! I remember reading it and took it as another hint.

[Ellfoy]

As to how I figured out RLJ: the first time I read the books it never even crossed my mind. I actually thought that Robert and Lyanna had this beautiful love story going on and then came the other asshole and ruined everything. I didn't think Jon's mother was important at all, and when Ned said the name Wylla, that was it for me.

The second time I read it, I got stuck on the "her wolf's blood led her to an early grave" thing. Why would Ned blame his sister for being kidnapped and raped? Which led me to the conclusion that maybe she wasn't. I still did not associate her with Jon, though.

On my third read I started wondering why Ned never told Jon who his mother was. And then "I promise". And that's when it clicked. Even then, I thought that Jon was still a bastard. It was only when I came on these forums that the whole picture became clear to me. And, let me tell, I love this. I love the whole story surrounding it and the implications it might have to the story in the future.

Shame on you ! *joking* It made me laugh actually.

Approached the tv series as an unsullied and got Jon's mother after watching the first episode (the crypt scene was narratively blatant imo). At first I guessed Robert was the father and Cersei the reason for hiding Jon's identity :blushing: Got the father on second episode, after Robert&Ned's little on-the-road heart to heart lol THAT was my turning point and I decided I had to read the books. So, yeah, R+L=J was first and foremost what drew me to ASoIaF :)

FrozenFire3, I name you a liar (or a terrifyingly clever person :bowdown: )