Connecting the 3 Dragon Heads - Examining Unique Similarities

[pobeb]

Generated new thread of Daenerys' lineage, added the link in the OP. It can be found here

[The Dragons Hand]

Well, the "B" does not stand for Barristan. I feel oddly relieved.

I vaguely remember mention of Bonifer in ADWD.

[pobeb]

Bonifer is never explicitly stated to be the knight who loved Rhaella. That's a deduction for the reader to make from Jaime's descriptions and Barristan's comments to Dany.

[The Dragons Hand]

So, if A+J=T, does that mean that Tyrion will be Orys Baratheon 2.0?

Bastard half-brother of the conquering party.

[Archmaester_Aemma]

So, I've only read to page 6, so apologies if this has already been said.

Love the theory OP :) Here's a few quick things thoughts of mine:

There is a tendency for characters to misinterpret prophecies. So, if anybody directly links Character A to a prophecy, it's a pretty safe bet that Character A is not who the prophecy refers to. This forms much of my logic for the subsequent points.

Point 1)

On page 6 (post 114) I saw the first reference to the Aerys/Rhaella prophecy, and it was used as a method of dismissing Tyrion, even if A+J.

However, Jaehaerys forces the marriage of A+R on the basis that a prophecy stated tPtwP comes from Aerys and Rhaella's line. Hence, he was probably wrong. How? Suppose that the woods witch did not say "Aerys and Rhaella's line", but "Aerys' (line) and Rhaella's line"? Spoken, those wouldn't sound different, and it works for all of the proposed Targ parentages ( (A+R=R)+L=J, A+J=T, A+R=D, B+R=D).

Point 2) - less of a point, more of a musing

Dany has been referred to as "a dragon with three heads" (Illyrio, I think the first Tyrion DwD chapter) - maybe it is just Dany? Then again she is explicitly referred to as tPtwP so it's unlikely to be her. She is not explicitly linked to AA though.

Point 3)

It has been made very explicit that "There must be one more... the dragon has three heads". So explicit, in fact, I almost can't believe that there are 3 figures that make up tPtwP. Especially when you consider that Dany has been referred to as a dragon with three heads, and that there are references made in ACoK to a three-headed dragon in the east (one of the Small Council meetings I think).

Of course, that is not to say that there are not 3 dragon riders, who may refer to other prophecies e.g. AA/LH

[pobeb]

So, I've only read to page 6, so apologies if this has already been said.

Love the theory OP :) Here's a few quick things thoughts of mine:

There is a tendency for characters to misinterpret prophecies. So, if anybody directly links Character A to a prophecy, it's a pretty safe bet that Character A is not who the prophecy refers to. This forms much of my logic for the subsequent points.

Point 1)

On page 6 (post 114) I saw the first reference to the Aerys/Rhaella prophecy, and it was used as a method of dismissing Tyrion, even if A+J.

However, Jaehaerys forces the marriage of A+R on the basis that a prophecy stated tPtwP comes from Aerys and Rhaella's line. Hence, he was probably wrong. How? Suppose that the woods witch did not say "Aerys and Rhaella's line", but "Aerys' (line) and Rhaella's line"? Spoken, those wouldn't sound different, and it works for all of the proposed Targ parentages ( (A+R=R)+L=J, A+J=T, A+R=D, B+R=D).

Point 2) - less of a point, more of a musing

Dany has been referred to as "a dragon with three heads" (Illyrio, I think the first Tyrion DwD chapter) - maybe it is just Dany? Then again she is explicitly referred to as tPtwP so it's unlikely to be her. She is not explicitly linked to AA though.

Point 3)

It has been made very explicit that "There must be one more... the dragon has three heads". So explicit, in fact, I almost can't believe that there are 3 figures that make up tPtwP. Especially when you consider that Dany has been referred to as a dragon with three heads, and that there are references made in ACoK to a three-headed dragon in the east (one of the Small Council meetings I think).

Of course, that is not to say that there are not 3 dragon riders, who may refer to other prophecies e.g. AA/LH

Glad you enjoyed the OP!

I think you draw up some interesting points. I too think that the fabled saviors: AA/LH/PtwP could definitely be multi-faceted. Aemon's words on his deathbed, to me, are pretty important in this regard. He's explaining that dragons are asexual creatures, which can be male or female or both or neither, leaving the reader to deduce that "the dragon" is a multi-faceted being. Speaking of which, as I'm looking at Aemon's words, I'm being instantly reminded of this:

Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain (the changeable flame). Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again.

Aemon describes dragons as asexual, and their state of being as changeable as flame.

Melisandre sees Jon changing to Ghost and back again in the fluttering fire (a changeable flame).

[pobeb]

Adding to B+R=D:

Bonifer commands the Holy Hundred.

Daenerys commands the Unsullied.

Both groups have been referred to as being gelded

Bonifer loses 14 men during the Battle of the Blackwater. Afterwards, Jaime refers to his men as the Holy 86.

Daenerys aquires 10,000 Unsullied from Astapor. However, they are not all soldiers; she gains 8,600 actual soldiers, and 1,400 boys yet cut or trained.

Although the values are obviously different, the digits are very much similar. This is what is key. Jaime speculates that Bonifer will seek to fill the 86 back to 100, just as Daenerys 8,600 are expected to be 10,000 (once the boys are trained and grown).

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Adding to B+R=D:

Bonifer commands the Holy Hundred.

Daenerys commands the Unsullied.

Both groups have been referred to as being gelded

Bonifer loses 14 men during the Battle of the Blackwater. Afterwards, Jaime refers to his men as the Holy 86.

Daenerys aquires 10,000 Unsullied from Astapor. However, they are not all soldiers; she gains 8,600 actual soldiers, and 1,400 boys yet cut or trained.

Although the values are obviously different, the digits are very much similar. This is what is key. Jaime speculates that Bonifer will seek to fill the 86 back to 100, just as Daenerys 8,600 are expected to be 10,000 (once the boys are trained and grown).

Nice catch!

[The Killer Snark]

Magnificent thread. Are you by any chance related to GRRM?

[Mithras]

And last, but not least:

4) Dany, Jon, and Tyrion represent the 3 things used to forge Lightbringer:

- The water used first to temper lightbringer represents the birth of Dany, born in the midst of a storm.

- The lion used to temper lightbringer represents the birth of Tyrion, born in the home of the lions - Casterly Rock.

- The love of Nissa Nissa used to temper lightbringer represents Jon, born of love in the Tower of Joy.

Through these multiple connections, I believe Jon, Tyrion, and Daenerys are the 3 heads of the dragon, and will be the key players in the "war for the dawn".

Your theory would have worked better if Dany was the eldest and Jon was the youngest of this trio.

Another thing to consider is that storm =/= water. Not even being born on the island Dragonstone =/= being born in the sea (as in the case of Mel's prophecy: a hero reborn in the sea).

[Amris]

Would Jon's Valyrian blade have caught fire had he killed Ygritte with it - like he was supposed to?

Snip

And I still need an important fire for Jon to light. The burning of Ygritte was never featured in the books, even if it would have been the most reasonable thing to do. Him having to do with Melisandre could also result in a plot-important bonfire at some point, but I'm a can't see anything specific. Burning down the Tower of the LC in AGoT also doesn't seem to have anything to do with love.

Jon burned a wight.

[MoIaF]

Nice thread!

I go back and forth between Dany, Jon and Bran or Dany, Jon and Tyrion as the three heads of the dragon.

RumHam brought this up yesterday on another thread, it's from a Davos chapter. Stannis is speaking to him about the AAR prophecy:

"The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies... a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone..."

When Illyrio is talking to Tyrion about Dany in ADWD:

“The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn [in the Dothraki sea] in blood and fire. This dragon queen who wears her name is a true Targaryen."

[pobeb]

Nice thread!

I go back and forth between Dany, Jon and Bran or Dany, Jon and Tyrion as the three heads of the dragon.

RumHam brought this up yesterday on another thread, it's from a Davos chapter. Stannis is speaking to him about the AAR prophecy:

"The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies... a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone..."

When Illyrio is talking to Tyrion about Dany in ADWD:

“The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn [in the Dothraki sea] in blood and fire. This dragon queen who wears her name is a true Targaryen."

Very interesting!

You may also find it interesting that, upon Dany traveling to Drogon's Lair, she refers to the lair as "Dragonstone" and it is located in a sea of grass :)

Meeren + Drogon's Lair = King's Landing + Dragonstone

I've been wrestling with the theory for a while now, but I'm thinking Dany's situation in ADwD was intended to parallel her mother's dilemma.

[MoIaF]

Very interesting!

You may also find it interesting that, upon Dany traveling to Drogon's Lair, she refers to the lair as "Dragonstone" and it is located in a sea of grass :)

Meeren + Drogon's Lair = King's Landing + Dragonstone

I've been wrestling with the theory for a while now, but I'm thinking Dany's situation in ADwD was intended to parallel her mother's dilemma.

Nice comparison.

There is definitely some Aegon the Conqueror comparison going on as well.

[pobeb]

Your theory would have worked better if Dany was the eldest and Jon was the youngest of this trio.

Another thing to consider is that storm =/= water. Not even being born on the island Dragonstone =/= being born in the sea (as in the case of Mel's prophecy: a hero reborn in the sea).

I'll give you that. Sequentially, it would have worked better if the lion came before the water.

The second part of your post kind of confused me. Storm doesn't equal water, and being born on Dragonstone doesn't mean being born in the sea? Maybe I'm reading you wrong, could you elaborate?

Adding to what your argument, I've debated that the "storm" dany was born during was a hoax, which would also work against the "forging of LB" piece that I included.

[Mithras]

I'll give you that. Sequentially, it would have worked better if the lion came before the water.

The second part of your post kind of confused me. Storm doesn't equal water, and being born on Dragonstone doesn't mean being born in the sea? Maybe I'm reading you wrong, could you elaborate?

Adding to what your argument, I've debated that the "storm" dany was born during was a hoax, which would also work against the "forging of LB" piece that I included.

Mel supposedly said the hero should be reborn in the sea. I can think of two cases a hero being reborn in the sea. Dany in the Dothraki Sea and Davos at Blackwater Bay. I also think Sam will be reborn in the sea as well but in his case, the sea will be the ironborn swarming the Oldtown.

I don't think being born on an island can be equated to being born in the sea, especially since we have such elegant rebirths in the seas.

[Attitude]

Got a couple of questions for this one.

1. If a similarity is that; they have a dead lover, was that everything about the Jon & Ygritte story? We never saw Tyrion & Tysha (which actually is his real love) so we don't know if she is dead. And does Shae count as a love since she betrayed him in the end? Dany and Drogo is quite clear (and the story makes sense for her to get to know the Dothraki). Just.. the J&Y was all about J being one of the heads? And Shae was Tyrion's 'love' that he lost?

2. Why is for instance (f)Aegon not a head of the dragon? Even the point if: he isn't a targ, he prolly is a blackfyre, which makes him (part) targ aswell. Maybe even more then Jon. Same goes for Tyrion, no blood of the targs either (unless you assume A+J=T).

[Hippocras]

I am actually starting to lean towards Tyrion being more a "thing between" than a dragon head. He spins the web that holds them together.

Where I am leaning right now is that the three heads are Jon, his aunt Dany, and his sister/cousin Sansa, who is, of course still married to Tyrion and might stay that way. The Dany and Bran comparisons are really fascinating and important but it is hard to see where they will lead. I don't really 'ship Bran and Daenerys. It is hard to see how they would even meet let alone collaborate.

And Bran is pure Ice, so not a dragon. I don't know if he will fly one. He is already flying ravens so that may be the extent of his flying prophesy.

Arya, like Tyrion, is a bit of a wild card at the moment, since she is presumed dead and not even in Westeros. However her wolf pack is huge and will no doubt be a factor. Still, there is nothing at this time to even remotely connect her to dragons, beast or human. If that changes, she could also be a contender for third head.

[Attitude]

Isn't there a chance that the prophecy isn't as litteraly? I mean, it seems to be related to Aegon the conqueror with his 3 dragons + riders (himself and his wives). But maybe this prophecy just means: We need 3 important people to fight of the WW. This could easily be Bran, Jon and Dany for instance.

[Hippocras]

Isn't there a chance that the prophecy isn't as litteraly? I mean, it seems to be related to Aegon the conqueror with his 3 dragons + riders (himself and his wives). But maybe this prophecy just means: We need 3 important people to fight of the WW. This could easily be Bran, Jon and Dany for instance.

If it was just three important people I don't see the point of describing it as heads of a dragon.

To me it is an obvious reference to house Targaryen and always comes up in those storylines.