Connecting the 3 Dragon Heads - Examining Unique Similarities

[Nozlym]

ya i to believe jon will need the kiss

some credence does come from the show, as mel does stop by on beric to see the kiss in action

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well, I guess the purpose of that Varamyr chapter went completely over your head then. Jon's body is dead, EVERYTHING in the text suggests it, and I'm pretty tired of arguing with you in circles about things that have been firmly established in the story.

I am not sure I have heard this part of your theory. I have been under the assumption that Jon would be in some sort of "coma" with his body in stasis, but not completely dead. He needs a body to come back to, after all, if he is going to go from man to wolf to man. And I don't think he will be UnJon, so he needs to be alive in some way--right? What exactly do you mean by saying that his body is dead, and what exactly is the "Varamyr chapter" that proves the point?

[Hippocras]

ya i to believe jon will need the kiss

some credence does come from the show, as mel does stop by on beric to see the kiss in action

I am not so sure. He might. But since Mel knew the attack was coming, and left the hall during Jon's speech, I think it is actually very possible she did preventative magic instead. Hence his smoking wounds. The description really seemed similar to Vic's smoking arm when Moqorro healed him.

[pobeb]

I am not sure I have heard this part of your theory. I have been under the assumption that Jon would be in some sort of "coma" with his body in stasis, but not completely dead. He needs a body to come back to, after all, if he is going to go from man to wolf to man. And I don't think he will be UnJon, so he needs to be alive in some way--right? What exactly do you mean by saying that his body is dead, and what exactly is the "Varamyr chapter" that proves the point?

I've mentioned it various times through various other threads. I'm thinking I need to put together an actual thread dedicated to this idea, but I'll give you the rundown since I like you :)

When Varamyr, a warg, is dying, he remembers and experiences this:

Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king.

Haggon’s rough voice echoed in his head. “You will die a dozen deaths, boy, and every one will hurt … but when your true death comes, you will live again. The second life is simpler and sweeter, they say.”

He was nine times dead and dying, and this would be his true death.

He could taste his true death... The chill was in him...

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake.

Then, Jon, a warg, in his dying moments, experiences this:

When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

So, everything considered, you can't deny that Jon's body is 100% dead, and he wargs into Ghost to preserve his spirit.

Now, I see you're concerned with UnJon, and I can promise you this will NOT happen. Observe:

Rusted hinges screamed like damned souls when Wick Whittlestick yanked the door wide enough for Jon to slip through... Jon Snow could see his own reflection dimly inside the icy walls.

I think we can all safely say that the first part of this passage is, without a doubt, foreshadowing Jon's death (wick whittlestick opening the door that screams like the dead) and that he wargs Ghost (wide enough for Jon to "slip" through).

So, obviously we know what happens with Jon's spirit; it wargs into Ghost. But what about the body? Well, the second part of the passage is there to clue the reader in: Jon, after being stabbed multiple times, will be thrown into the ice cells - and since the ice cells need to be upkept to keep the Wall from just growing back into place, and the NW will be busy with the Wildlings, we have the setup for Jon being frozen into the Wall. This is precisely why he sees his reflection, not "on" or "through" the Wall, but "inside" the Wall.

This is the plot device that protects Jon from being wighted, when the Others use their magic to raise a dead army from the fallen in the aftermath of NW vs Wildlings. And we know Jon is protected and this is what the Others will do, because of three precedents which have been established:

1) "He had hoped to learn something from the bodies they’d brought back from the weirwood grove, but the dead men had stubbornly remained dead." We can see here that the wights can't move when under the Wall. This is MAJORLY important. We know the Others can control them once their on the other side of the wall, but not UNDER it.

2) Othor and Jafer, having to be carried under and through the Wall, attempt to assassinate Lord Commander Mormont. This tells us that the Others are cunning enough to use their thralls as scouts and assassins, and that they have an actual strategy mapped out.

3) Old Nan's prophetic " The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night’s Watch stay true"

Melisandre sees Jon turn from human, to wolf, back to human. So, it's obvious that at some point Jon will return to his human body. However, he cannot return to the body as long as it's dead and frozen into the Wall. So, it begs the question, is there anything out there that can bring back dead human bodies and be warm enough to melt ice?

And the glaring answer is: The Kiss

The kiss isn't just a figurative prayer; the caster breathes LITERAL flames into the given dead body:

I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord’s servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, norseen his eyes come open.

But, is there precedent for Catelyn to give any sort of kiss, let alone the kiss to Jon?

Of course!

1) The kiss is considered a prayer, and Catelyn's own daughter, Sansa, recalls giving Sandor a kiss, when in actuallity all she gave him was a prayer. Please google "UnKiss" for a more detailed explanation.

Interestingly, Sansa's prayer goes:

Gentle Mother, font of mercy,

save our sons from war, we pray,

stay the swords and stay the arrows,

let them know a better day.

The Gentle Mother (Catelyn) finally shows the son from war (Jon) a font of mercy, and lets him know a better day.

2) Waking a Dragon (Jon) from stone (Stoneheart)

3) Jon is directly affected by 3 different red-heads in the story: Ygritte, Melisandre, Catelyn

4) the story's prevalent and reoccuring theme of redemption in relation to lady stoneheart's purpose in the story

5) the passing of flame satisfies an established pattern of male/female/male. Like the sibling groupings of (rhaegar, dany, viserys) or (jaime, cersei, tyrion) or (aegon, rhaenys, jon) or similarity groupings of (tyrion, dany, jon)

In this case, it would be (beric, catelyn, jon)

So, Catelyn's kiss is what is required to melt Jon from his icy confines, thus rebirthing him, redeeming cat, and fufilling the prophecy we all seem to be so confused about.

I hope this was an adequate answer to your question :)

p.s. It isn't easy explaining and citing all this info. Don't get me wrong, I love to do it, but I really hate when my work is questioned by people like Hippocras - who never cite and seem absurdly ignorant of the source material. I wish this wasn't a "thing" on the boards. People really need to start putting effort into their ideas, instead of wikipediaing every god damned passage of the books. Sorry for the rant, I hope you guys can appreciate how frustrating this is becoming.

[UnmaskedLurker]

[snip]

Very interesting analysis, and I would not have thought of it that way, but it seems plausible. This theory explains how Jon's body is preserved and how his resurrection will be different that others--in that his soul never passed on as it remained in Ghost while his body was frozen. I still think the coma alternative is possible, but your alternative allows him to remain in Ghost much longer and still be fully resurrected, so it has that going for it. After all, Westeros does not have IV and other medical equipment to keep a comatose patient alive very long.

[pobeb]

Very interesting analysis, and I would not have thought of it that way, but it seems plausible. This theory explains how Jon's body is preserved and how his resurrection will be different that others--in that his soul never passed on as it remained in Ghost while his body was frozen. I still think the coma alternative is possible, but your alternative allows him to remain in Ghost much longer and still be fully resurrected, so it has that going for it. After all, Westeros does not have IV and other medical equipment to keep a comatose patient alive very long.

The "shock of cold" experienced by both Varamyr and Jon, while they're dying, and reaching out to warg their respective wolves, is pretty much the nail in the coffin for me. (Yes, pun intended)

I mean, we're not sitting around and debating whether or not Varamyr is in a coma; we're all pretty certain he's dead as fried chicken. So, why are we doing this with Jon?

I mean, Haggon doesn't describe "second life" to Varamyr as just simply warging. "Second life" is what happens when you're forced to warg after your body has had TRUE DEATH.

So, yes, Jon is TRULY dead.

If you want my honest opinion, most readers love Jon so much they refuse to accept the idea that Jon, at least his body, is dead. What these readers don't realize, is that it is 100% necessary for Jon to die, so that he may be reborn.

"Kill the boy and let the man be born"

Having his body experience "true death", while he lives his "second life" through Ghost (just look at the name), absolutely satisifies the conflict setup in the plot - while doubly meeting the criteria of the fabled AA prophecy: Waking a dragon (Jon) from stone (Stoneheart)

I honestly think GRRM's naming of "Ghost" is the most significant and longest spread case of foreshadowing in the entire story. In hindsight, GRRM has hinted to us of Jon's death since the 5th chapter of the very first book.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The "shock of cold" experienced by both Varamyr and Jon, while they're dying, and reaching out to warg their respective wolves, is pretty much the nail in the coffin for me. (Yes, pun intended)

I mean, we're not sitting around and debating whether or not Varamyr is in a coma; we're all pretty certain he's dead as fried chicken. So, why are we doing this with Jon?

I mean, Haggon doesn't describe "second life" to Varamyr as just simply warging. "Second life" is what happens when you're forced to warg after your body has had TRUE DEATH.

So, yes, Jon is TRULY dead.

If you want my honest opinion, most readers love Jon so much they refuse to accept the idea that Jon, at least his body, is dead. What these readers don't realize, is that it is 100% necessary for Jon to die, so that he may be reborn.

"Kill the boy and let the man be born"

Having his body experience "true death", while he lives his "second life" through Ghost (just look at the name), absolutely satisifies the conflict setup in the plot - while doubly meeting the criteria of the fabled AA prophecy: Waking a dragon (Jon) from stone (Stoneheart)

I honestly think GRRM's naming of "Ghost" is the most significant and longest spread case of foreshadowing in the entire story. In hindsight, GRRM has hinted to us of Jon's death since the 5th chapter of the very first book.

I think the reason people object to Jon's body being "dead" is because it it pretty clear that he cannot be "UnJon" when he is resurrected because the "real" Jon has to complete the rest of his mission. I don't think people care whether his body is dead or in a coma, as long as he comes back as himself. I don't think it has anything to do with "loving" Jon too much. I think people could not see how he could come back as himself if his body is dead. But you have done a reasonable job of explaining how usually, it would be impossible to come back from death other than as a zombie of some kind, but this circumstance will be unique enough for Jon to come back as the real Jon.

[pobeb]

But you have done a reasonable job of explaining how usually, it would be impossible to come back from death other than as a zombie of some kind, but this circumstance will be unique enough for Jon to come back as the real Jon.

Correct. Jon will not be wighted because, like Jafer, Othor, and the corpses in the ice cells, the Others cannot control bodies directly under the Wall. And the foreshadowing set by Jon seeing himself "inside" the Walls sets precedence for this.

There's even Dany's vision in THoU, where she sees:

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness

- A blue flower (Jon)

- grew from a chink (the carvings of the ice cells) in the wall

- and filled the air with sweetness (Jon is reborn... SWEET!) ;)

The biggest nod at this is "CHINK" in a wall of ice. The flower is not just growing from the Wall, but from A CHINK in the Wall. What else could the "chink" be if not the ice cells, right?

[UnmaskedLurker]

Correct. Jon will not be wighted because, like Jafer, Othor, and the corpses in the ice cells, the Others cannot control bodies directly under the Wall. And the foreshadowing set by Jon seeing himself "inside" the Walls sets precedence for this.

Just to be clear--it is not enough just to say he won't be a Wight. The point is that he will not be UnJon--the way that there has been UnBeric or UnCat. When Jon is resurrected, it has to be the real Jon, not an UnJon reincarnation.

[pobeb]

Just to be clear--it is not enough just to say he won't be a Wight. The point is that he will not be UnJon--the way that there has been UnBeric or UnCat. When Jon is resurrected, it has to be the real Jon, not an UnJon reincarnation.

Ooooh, ok. I see what you're getting at. Yes, you are absolutely right about Jon's circumstances being different. In both UnBeric and UnCat's case, the body is present, but the soul is absent, as it is replaced by the flames. In Jon's case, his body and soul would be present - which immediately sets him apart from the prior two cases. Good point, I don't know why I wasn't seeing that, despite the fact that it's sorta the basis of my argument.

Moving forward (since, despite how much I love it, all this last kiss talk is off-topic):

Sphinxes. Anyone think there should be a thread dedicated to Sphinxes and their relation to Jon, Tyrion, and Dany? I think the symbolism I provided with the King Sphinx being carried away is a pretty strong piece of evidence for the pro. What do you guys think?

[jon rhaegar stark]

Actually , that scene where Tyrion sees the Queen Spinx and King Sphinx is missing is what led me believe that

Jon is king Sphinx and Danny is Queen sphinx

sure tyrion comes as the third sphinx if you considered Gargoyle =sphinx ...but i am not denying the fact that tyrion is indeed gargoyle ...but what makes me doubt is like i said before is from MOqorro's saying that he will be among them and not one of them

i always thought that show showing us the Four houses is because they are the major houses in the story and they have the major players in the story of ASOIAF...

wolves -every stark

Dragons- Danny

Stag-Stannis baratheon

Lion-tyrion ,jamie and cersei

all four houses will be the ones who will lead the war against others

sorry but iam not buying into that Danny is daughter of Bonifer ...even if he did fathered her that doesnt make him a Stag or Baratheon

actually i also believe that Jon is not dead and will not come as Unjon or anything

but the vision where Danny sees him in HOTU and also a Dream where BRAN sees JON as COLD as DEAD can also refer to the point of him being in the ghost and his body is preserved

i believe it will be Danny who comes to the Wall and raise him back and bring him back from Ghost and get his body

[Kyoshi]

I'd find your theory compelling if the following were not true:

• Each of them can only be half-Targaryen, a condition that seems key to your theory
  
• Tyrion has to be a Targaryen, leading us to a very crackpot theory
  
• Daenerys has to have been born from a man we know values honour far too much to have had an extra-marital affair with Rhaella (I could be wrong but from the little we know of him, Hasty seems like the kind of person who would only copulate for the sake of procreation).
  

[Attitude]

Who ever said that the three heads have to have 'as much as similarity as possible?' Everyone is assuming that the criteria are 'having killed your mother in childbirth, lost a love, etc.' Why is this assumed a requirement ?

[Kyoshi]

Who ever said that the three heads have to have 'as much as similarity as possible?' Everyone is assuming that the criteria are 'having killed your mother in childbirth, lost a love, etc.' Why is this assumed a requirement ?

:agree:

[Hos the Hostage]

Who ever said that the three heads have to have 'as much as similarity as possible?' Everyone is assuming that the criteria are 'having killed your mother in childbirth, lost a love, etc.' Why is this assumed a requirement ?

I think the OP is pointing out the similarities between a popular prediction for the three heads of the dragon. No one said anything about requirements, except GRRM who said being a Targaryen is NOT a requirement.

I absolutely love the OPs interpretation of the triplet of prophecies followed by the line three heads has the dragon. I always assumed the 'you' in prophecy meant Dany. But what if it was addressed to the three heads of the dragon, which is supposedly three different people?

If the fire for life if the birth of dragons, then the prophecy covers events from the past as well as present and future. If that is the case, this is my interpretation:

Three fires must you light:

Life: Dany burning Drogo and hatching dragons

Death: Tyrion burning the Blackwater

Love: Jon burning Ygritte

Three treasons shall you know:

Blood: GC, Illyrio and Varys betraying Dany for a Blackfyre pretender, their blood relation.

Gold: Shae betraying Tyrion

Love: Ned betraying Jon for his love towards Lyanna and Robert.

Three mounts must you ride:

Bed: Dany's wedding to Drogo

Dread: Tyrion mounting Stinky Steward. He gets genuinely scared for life during the storm, and he ends up being sold as a slave then almost ends up inside a lion's belly.

Love: Jon riding to Winterfell for Arya(?)

[Attitude]

I think the OP is pointing out the similarities between a popular prediction for the three heads of the dragon. No one said anything about requirements, except GRRM who said being a Targaryen is NOT a requirement.

I absolutely love the OPs interpretation of the triplet of prophecies followed by the line three heads has the dragon. I always assumed the 'you' in prophecy meant Dany. But what if it was addressed to the three heads of the dragon, which is supposedly three different people?

If the fire for life if the birth of dragons, then the prophecy covers events from the past as well as present and future. If that is the case, this is my interpretation:

Three fires must you light:

Life: Dany burning Drogo and hatching dragons

Death: Tyrion burning the Blackwater

Love: Jon burning Ygritte

Three treasons shall you know:

Blood: GC, Illyrio and Varys betraying Dany for a Blackfyre pretender, their blood relation.

Gold: Shae betraying Tyrion

Love: Ned betraying Jon for his love towards Lyanna and Robert.

Three mounts must you ride:

Bed: Dany's wedding to Drogo

Dread: Tyrion mounting Stinky Steward. He gets genuinely scared for life during the storm, and he ends up being sold as a slave then almost ends up inside a lion's belly.

Love: Jon riding to Winterfell for Arya(?)

This part I like a lot aswell. Since it's close to impossible to explain this for Dany herself.

But this doesn't state that they have to have a similarity. And if you look at other characters (at this point we know more), you can put them in there aswell. Let's take stannis. He lighted a lot with milesandre, got 'betrayed' (for gold) by salladhor for instance and he mounted milesandre (dread for the killing of renly?)

This is just one, but probably you can fill it in for others too.

I don't say D+T+J is wrong, but I have doubts. Especially about T. And the similarity's don't explain it for me.

[Hippocras]

poebeb

First of all "the entire point" of the Varamyr prologue was NOT Jon. That is a very bizarre and convoluted way of seeing it. The Varamyr prologue was our window into details of how warging works that we otherwise did not have access to because the Stark kids were never taught the rules:

We learned that warging humans is a big no no and we saw much of the reason why. This matters obviously for Bran's arc, not Jon's. It suggests Hodor is going to be something to be watched.

We learned that wargs can recognize other beasts occupied by wargs.

We learned that wights can recognize wargs when in their beasts, and they remember (unlike UnBeric whose memory was almost gone). Thistle looks at him after he has become One Eye and knows him.

We learned what kind of guy Varamyr is, which is significant now that he is, as One Eye, part of Summer's pack. We also know that Varamyr always wanted a direwolf, so will be jealous of Bran. He's dangerous.

As for the feeling of coldness - I have no doubt that Jon, like Varamyr, went cold because his body was in very serious distress. I even suspect, as you do, that Jon jumped in to Ghost at the end of the attack, and will stay in his wolf for some undefined amount of time after the events at the wall unfold. However I do NOT think that him being badly injured, going cold and warging automatically means his body is dead.

His wounds were smoking. He is a dragon. Death does not come to dragons that way.

And Mel was likely prepared for the attack and taking measures while it was happening to keep him alive. His smoking wounds were similar to Victarion's smoking arm, and as usual you seem prone to ignoring some text evidence while exaggerating the importance of wording here and there in the text to push your point.

If you insist on emphasizing the similarity in wording of Varamyr's end and Jon's attack, you must also acknowledge this similarity to Vic - whose smoking arm PREVENTED death. And, as Jon, was accompanied by a priest of R'hllor.

[Attitude]

I forgot about Victarion. Why wouldn’t he be a head of the dragon? He’s got the horn which will make him able to control a dragon and not requiring dragons blood in that case = Non Targ.

[Hippocras]

I forgot about Victarion. Why wouldnt he be a head of the dragon? Hes got the horn which will make him able to control a dragon and not requiring dragons blood in that case = Non Targ.

Well I seriously hope, personally, that Vic is not a head of the Dragon. But his arm was healed with fire magic which prevented certain death, and Mel, I am sure, has that same power. She left during the speech so she could help Jon with magic when he was attacked.

I admit he might be a head of the dragon though, I just hate him so don't want that to happen.

[Attitude]

Why hate Victarion? I have less affection for Euron then him. I wouldn't mind it a lot, only the fact that (up to now) he has had no role in the series.

I wouldn't mind Victarion taking revenge on Euron. 'You f*cked her and I had to kill her, but I couldn't kill you'