TheBlackFlame Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 @TheBlackFlame Do yourself a "super favor" and reread the passages concerning the Doom; as well as the children's crashing of the Arm of Dorne and the Rhoynar king who cast Greyscale amongst conquering Valyrians; The doom nearly being a combination of these two cataclysmic magical acts Yes the children did destroy the arm but show me in the text another group capable of anything even close to that kind of destruction. The only thing that even comes close that can be confirmed is the destruction of Harrenhall and the power the horn of Joramun allegedly possesses. But they really don't even register as a blip compared to the breaking of the Arm or the Doom. So unless the Children did it you have a lot to prove guy. Sorry but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. But I suppose its possible GRRM related precisely the conditions of a caldera eruption by sheer coincidence. As far as the Rhoynar king legend goes its most likely just that a legend. No one in the story ever treats it as anything more. I would seriously love to punch the dude who introduced Checkov's Gun to the fanboiverse. Because a lot of you guys really seem fuzzy on the essence of the concept, the term "red herring" is nearly as frequently misapplied for that matter. Sometimes bro a cigar is just a cigar. If you believe every legend everywhere in the whole of Planetos is true then by that logic I can tell how the series ends right now. Everyone and everything everywhere is going to be consumed by the ghost grass. There I saved you the price of the next two novels or an HBO subscription you're welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I agree that not every story is "true." I think what's more important is that so many of the cultures we encounter in ASOIAF have some sort of "Doom in Valaryia" story. It was that big of an event in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skagosi Pirate Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 Yes the children did destroy the arm but show me in the text another group capable of anything even close to that kind of destruction. The only thing that even comes close that can be confirmed is the destruction of Harrenhall and the power the horn of Joramun allegedly possesses. But they really don't even register as a blip compared to the breaking of the Arm or the Doom. So unless the Children did it you have a lot to prove guy. Sorry but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. But I suppose its possible GRRM related precisely the conditions of a caldera eruption by sheer coincidence. I will eat my hat if the Doom of Valyria was caused by a Caldera Eruption. Yes, ASOIAF has many aspects that are like real history (e.g. Greek Fire, the Red Wedding, etc.) but there is no way the doom could be a Caldera for several reasons. The Doom is similar to Pompeii but show me a real-life volcano that has dragon-glass falling from the sky, firewyrm invested mines, lakes turning to acid, or where the sky above the eruption glows red - as seen from a distance of hundreds of miles - some four-hundred years later. ASOIAF is a FANTASY series. Catalysts for major events are dragons, skin-changers, and greenseers. Why a kingdom of Dragonlords imploded is likely to be very important, and not a red herring, because a great deal of the plot rests upon the taming, and possibly riding, of dragons. Given the universe GRMM has created it would be absolutely 100% insane if the major cause of one of the largest mysteries in the series was geological friction caused by the movement of tectonic plates. What's next? The WW are created by glacial erosion? Won't that make a fascinating, dramatic chapter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackFlame Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I will eat my hat if the Doom of Valyria was caused by a Caldera Eruption. Yes, ASOIAF has many aspects that are like real history (e.g. Greek Fire, the Red Wedding, etc.) but there is no way the doom could be a Caldera for several reasons. The Doom is similar to Pompeii but show me a real-life volcano that has dragon-glass falling from the sky, firewyrm invested mines, lakes turning to acid, or where the sky above the eruption glows red - as seen from a distance of hundreds of miles - some four-hundred years later. ASOIAF is a FANTASY series. Catalysts for major events are dragons, skin-changers, and greenseers. Why a kingdom of Dragonlords imploded is likely to be very important, and not a red herring, because a great deal of the plot rests upon the taming, and possibly riding, of dragons. Given the universe GRMM has created it would be absolutely 100% insane if the major cause of one of the largest mysteries in the series was geological friction caused by the movement of tectonic plates. What's next? The WW are created by glacial erosion? Won't that make a fascinating, dramatic chapter! Its funny how you and the other guy have ignored the other part of my statement. That due to it being a fantasy setting the destruction was amplified, it was also made worse by the magical means the Valyrians used to mine and maintain the caves. Go back and read my original post. Setting that I aside I'll tell you what I told the other guy either its patterned on a caldera eruption or this is the most amazing coincidence in the history of literature. I'm also guessing its not a coincidence that the story of Valyria is almost identical to the story of Atlantis. Are you ignorant of the details of these legends? Because anyone who has read both will see clear similarities immediately in every aspect in both. Turn Dragons into flying chariots and make Valyria and island and they are literally the same story. There is a thread of references and homages pinned at the top of this board that is dozens of pages long. I haven't looked at it but if even a third of those posts are correct there are literally hundreds of parallels and inside references to other stories and media in this series. Bearing that in mind why is the idea of him taking inspiration from the real world so unbelievable? Also not for nothing if you think a caldera eruption in the real world is any less destructive than the hypothetical forces that destroyed Valyria you might want to look it up in a geology textbook. Millions of tons of lava literally tossed miles high into the air landing with the destructive force of a missile in a radius hundreds of miles across. The air gets so hot it literally instantaneously ignites all oxygen within the area of the caldera. Do you appreciate what they means? Its like swimming in at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean but intstead of water its fire at a temputure of around 4000c. There is no air left just fire. A little further out we get what is called a pyroclastic flow. Have you ever heard the term? If not a pyroclastic flow is an area of densely compressed super heated air. When it becomes this heated both oxygen molecules are completely burned up leaving only the Hydrogen component, because of the incredible pressure the Hydrogen is under it then mixes with the sulfur and methane belched by the volcano and becomes sulfuric acid. Do you know what that is? If not let me tell you sulfuric acid is on of the most corrosive and destructive elements known to man. It can eat high carbon steel nearly on contact. So basically you're staring down the barrel of a miles wide cloud of powerful acid heated to over 2000c moving at hundreds of miles per hour, it would literally consume a human being instantly. Its not even vaporization, there is literally nothing left because what vapor isn't instantly burned away by the sulfiric acid is absorbed and used as fuel for the pyroclastic flow. You simply cease to exist as thought you were never even there. Moving out a little further we get what is called a volcanic bomb. This one is a little esoteric so if you haven't heard of it you wouldn't be alone. Magma chambers are filled with whatever type of stone comprises the bedrock of a region sometimes there is more than one type however. This is actually pretty common in places like the San Andreas fault line or the Ring of Fire in the South Pacific where one or more tectonic plates converge. So having one temperature acting on multiple types of igneous rock the level of melt is going to vary. Say if the chamber is 50% White Limestone and 50% Granite. Of course when the temperature of the Magma chamber reaches what geologists call "equilibrium" i.e.- stable temperature, pressure and density obviously more of the Limestone will have melted than the Granite. So we get chunks floating in an ocean of Magma like lumpy brown gravy some the size of a school bus. Not quite solid but more coagulated than the surrounding liquids. When a caldera goes these chunks become volcanic bombs of which one the size of a football could level a shopping mall on impact. These are just a few aspects of the immediate eruption there are many many more but I think I'll spare you the dissertation and confine my purview to elements directly mentioned in relation to the Doom. There are other really really nasty things that happen almost immediately. For example Krakatoa expelled so much ash and dust into the upper atmosphere that the sun wasn't visible for days afterword in regions as far away as western Europe, most famously the sun didn't shine in England for three days. On top of that people in Japan were still dying from simple silicosis just from breathing the open air for decades after the eruption. Bear in mind also that Krakatoa was a firecracker next to the Santorini eruption upon which the Atlantis mythology is based. Geologists are still to this day trying to sort out just how much impact it had on climate globally and the eruption occurred nearly 4000 years ago. It was literally that destructive. So actually the reality is that the Doom is described as less cataclysmic and horrific than a real caldera eruption. If I were to label a climatic or geological event as "the wrath of the gods" it would definitely be a caldera eruption. You know those super volcanoes you hear about on the History and Science channel? The ones they are concerned could potentially wipe out all life on earth? This is exactly what they are talking about. Sorry but if you think the Doom was more destructive than a caldera eruption then you don't know very much about them. Apologies but as I said originally this site needs skeptics desperately. However I do appreciate that you debated the point with me. My skepticism has been rather less graciously received by some people who I have doubted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Does the exact nature of the Doom matter? Ie: whether it was fantastical or more real world, like the example TheBlackFlame is giving of real world scenarios? Or is it more important that it just happened? I think the Doom is more a warning of what might happen in the future, instead of being something that is going to play a big role in the present day stuff. If a second Doom is coming--if the world is out of balance--I think that's what we're supposed to take home, not necessarily the exact detailed nature of the first Doom. Just my thoughts anyway :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackFlame Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I will eat my hat if the Doom of Valyria was caused by a Caldera Eruption. Yes, ASOIAF has many aspects that are like real history (e.g. Greek Fire, the Red Wedding, etc.) but there is no way the doom could be a Caldera for several reasons. The Doom is similar to Pompeii but show me a real-life volcano that has dragon-glass falling from the sky, firewyrm invested mines, lakes turning to acid, or where the sky above the eruption glows red - as seen from a distance of hundreds of miles - some four-hundred years later. ASOIAF is a FANTASY series. Catalysts for major events are dragons, skin-changers, and greenseers. Why a kingdom of Dragonlords imploded is likely to be very important, and not a red herring, because a great deal of the plot rests upon the taming, and possibly riding, of dragons. Given the universe GRMM has created it would be absolutely 100% insane if the major cause of one of the largest mysteries in the series was geological friction caused by the movement of tectonic plates. What's next? The WW are created by glacial erosion? Won't that make a fascinating, dramatic chapter! Also not to be a pedant here but Pompeii was not a caldera eruption it wasn't even close. The reason Pompeii is so famous is not because it was such a powerful explosion rather because A: it erupted in a densely populated area so it killed exponentially more people than the average volcanic eruption does and B. the town and victims were perfectly preserved beneath tons of ash allowing anthropologists essentially a perfect snapshot of life in the period. While it certainly interests a few geologists Pompeii is a much more significant event to historians and archaeologists. As far as eruptions go it barely reaches the middle of the pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackFlame Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Does the exact nature of the Doom matter? Ie: whether it was fantastical or more real world, like the example TheBlackFlame is giving of real world scenarios? Or is it more important that it just happened? I think the Doom is more a warning of what might happen in the future, instead of being something that is going to play a big role in the present day stuff. If a second Doom is coming--if the world is out of balance--I think that's what we're supposed to take home, not necessarily the exact detailed nature of the first Doom. Just my thoughts anyway :) It really doesn't. Like I said this theory is a little far fetched but by no means the craziest thing I've seen on this board in just the past 24 hours. Come down to it my ideas are just as theoretical I have just applied a little inductive reasoning to the question. I just feel like "fan theories" have gotten way out hand. At best we have a lot of people acting like their pet theory is established cannon and declaring anyone who disagrees is a troll and at worst it has crossed the line into straight up fan fiction. There is no proverbial counterweight to some of the completely insane crackpots that people swallow whole cloth and I think there should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kinkslayer Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 This may sound slightly crackpotish but the doom was caused by fracking, winter is an allegory for global warming (people talks but does nothing about it). The red wedding was about gay marriage (it is known that Edmure's song implies he is gay) Gurrm is an ecoterrorist that wants to destroy our modern wedding/oil based society Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackFlame Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 This may sound slightly crackpotish but the doom was caused by fracking, winter is an allegory for global warming (people talks but does nothing about it). The red wedding was about gay marriage (it is known that Edmure's song implies he is gay) Gurrm is an ecoterrorist that wants to destroy our modern wedding/oil based society I agree but the process of fracking had yet to be conceived of when GRRM began writing this series. But I do think it is intended to make a very subtle statement about our stewardship of this planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snark of Winterfell Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 They must have had some part in it, somehow, because in AFFC (Arya chapter), GRRM writes this conversation between Arya and the Kindly Man: "All gods have their instruments, men and women who serve them and help to work their will on earth. The slaves were not crying out to a hundred different gods, as it seemed, but to one god with a hundred different faces . . . and he was that god’s instrument. That very night he chose the most wretched of the slaves, the one who had prayed most earnestly for release, and freed him from his bondage. The first gift had been given." Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right. "He should have killed the masters!" "He would bring the gift to them as well . . . but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one." That quote you keep you keep using can mean the faceless men took out all the masters in some grand Doom fashion, it could also mean Valar Morghulis, all men must die, the gift is inevitable. May be right, but that passage in and of itself don't convince me. I do believe the Doom was a magical cataclysmic event that the Targs brought on themselves somehow with crazy magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skagosi Pirate Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 Its funny how you and the other guy have ignored the other part of my statement. That due to it being a fantasy setting the destruction was amplified, it was also made worse by the magical means the Valyrians used to mine and maintain the caves. Go back and read my original post. Setting that I aside I'll tell you what I told the other guy either its patterned on a caldera eruption or this is the most amazing coincidence in the history of literature. I'm also guessing its not a coincidence that the story of Valyria is almost identical to the story of Atlantis. Are you ignorant of the details of these legends? Because anyone who has read both will see clear similarities immediately in every aspect in both. Turn Dragons into flying chariots and make Valyria and island and they are literally the same story. There is a thread of references and homages pinned at the top of this board that is dozens of pages long. I haven't looked at it but if even a third of those posts are correct there are literally hundreds of parallels and inside references to other stories and media in this series. Bearing that in mind why is the idea of him taking inspiration from the real world so unbelievable? Thanks for continuing to debate with me. One of the more enjoyable ASOIAF discussions. I have a reasonable basic grasp of geography from school, I think, though I've never studied the subject at university level. Obviously I didn't mean to suggest that Pompeii was the result of a Caldera. I was using it as an example of an important town destroyed by volcanic activity. Nor am I ignorant of Atlantis, which I always personally took to be a myth based upon Pompeii (though obviously no-one really knows). I definitely agree with you that GRRM uses real life as an inspiration. But at the same time I still can't see the Doom just being caused by a Caldera because GRRM always embellishes real life to make it far more fantastical and more dramatic. I realise we'll have to wait to WOW to find the final answer to this question, but I do think GRRM will give us some reason for the origin of the doom. My hunch - which I stand by - is that it will be to do with magic, involving FM and perhaps dragon-sacrifice. Is it really too much for you to believe that a Caldera-type eruption could be caused by magic in the ASOIAF universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skagosi Pirate Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 I think if the quote was "The gift would come to them as well" that would suggest the kindly man was saying that all men will die, Valar Morghulis. To me the important part of the sentence is "He would bring the gift to them" which infers that the Faceless Men were actively involved in the death of more than one Master. I might be wrong, I guess the FM could have killed a couple of Masters and then pissed off to Braavos. But it does seem more likely he's saying the FM had a part - even small - to play in the Doom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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