oursisthefury69 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 @Applemartini Well firstly classic answering of a question with another question. I would say I'd be glad to answer yours once you answer mine (which preceded yours), but since yours is insultingly simple and borders on the rhetorical I'll go ahead whilst you sidestep a better question; Yes obviously he would be a bigger political threat legitimized as opposed to being as bastard, as anybody would be in any scenario. Still, You are saying; legitimate Jon = Conceal Jon under a false identity for his entire life Bastard Jon = Just spill the beans, I'm sure Bobby Baratheon wont take it to seriously "but as a bastard he (Jon) is politically toothless" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 wrong the vow is to protect the king foremost. If they took their vows so seriously they would of been with Aerys, their king, instead of Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 If they took their vows so seriously they would of been with Aerys, their king, instead of Rhaegar. I address this in the OP. There was no need to go to Aerys. He had Jaime guarding him and did not appear to be in danger. Only one KG needs to be with the king. If Jaime and Tywin had not betrayed Aerys, he would have been safe. At the time Ned gets to ToJ, they either know or are made aware that at that point, Aerys (and by implication Aegon) is dead. At that point it is too late to go to Aerys. But Viserys had NO KG with him, and Ned makes that clear to them. They don't express any need to get to Viserys--which is only explainable if the KG view Jon as the rightful heir and not Viserys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic. Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 If they took their vows so seriously they would of been with Aerys, their king, instead of Rhaegar. wrong one of the Kingsguard was there protecting the king and the commander of the kingsguard himself was sent by Aerys to Rhaeggar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I address this in the OP. There was no need to go to Aerys. He had Jaime guarding him and did not appear to be in danger. Only one KG needs to be with the king. If Jaime and Tywin had not betrayed Aerys, he would have been safe. At the time Ned gets to ToJ, they either know or are made aware that at that point, Aerys (and by implication Aegon) is dead. At that point it is too late to go to Aerys. But Viserys had NO KG with him, and Ned makes that clear to them. They don't express any need to get to Viserys--which is only explainable if the KG view Jon as the rightful heir and not Viserys. So they thought it would be a good idea to leave the most junior member who was named to the KG to piss Tywin off more than anything. Jaime was more of a hostage than a bodyguard. Or they know the war is lost and they would rather die than flee into exile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 wrong one of the Kingsguard was there protecting the king and the commander of the kingsguard himself was sent by Aerys to Rhaeggar. It doesn't matter if others are with Aerys, something tells me a paranoid lunatic like Aerys wouldn't willingly part with Arthur and Oswell so they probably went with Rhaegar against Aerys' wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic. Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 It doesn't matter if others are with Aerys, something tells me a paranoid lunatic like Aerys wouldn't willingly part with Arthur and Oswell so they probably went with Rhaegar against Aerys' wishes. If he's willing to part with his captain of the kingsguard how does your point make any sense at all? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 If he's willing to part with his captain of the kingsguard how does your point make any sense at all? lol The LC of the Kingsguard didn't sit at Dorne the entire war and was probably supposed to return with Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 So they thought it would be a good idea to leave the most junior member who was named to the KG to piss Tywin off more than anything. Jaime was more of a hostage than a bodyguard.Or they know the war is lost and they would rather die than flee into exile.I don't know what you are talking about. Aerys thought that Tywin was on his side, and the big mistake was opening the gates for Tywin. Jaime was in no way a hostage. The rule is that at least on KG must be with king, and the rule was followed. There was no obligation to go to Aerys because he had a KG with him. It is not a matter of what the KG thought was a good idea. Two were posted to Rhaegar and the other 4 left Aerys at his direction. They had no reason to die when they have an obligation to guard the king, and they can keep that vow by going to Dragonstone. They keep their vow, and the main vow is to protect the king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 It doesn't matter if others are with Aerys, something tells me a paranoid lunatic like Aerys wouldn't willingly part with Arthur and Oswell so they probably went with Rhaegar against Aerys' wishes. My understanding is that as the crown prince, Rhaegar had these two as his permanent guards. They were stationed to follow him by Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic. Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I don't know what you are talking about. Aerys thought that Tywin was on his side, and the big mistake was opening the gates for Tywin. Jaime was in no way a hostage. The rule is that at least on KG must be with king, and the rule was followed. There was no obligation to go to Aerys because he had a KG with him. It is not a matter of what the KG thought was a good idea. Two were posted to Rhaegar and the other 4 left Aerys at his direction. They had no reason to die when they have an obligation to guard the king, and they can keep that vow by going to Dragonstone. They keep their vow, and the main vow is to protect the king. pretty much this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bittersteel Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Perhaps that was the case when Rhaegar was still alive (and Aerys and Aegon). Yet by the time Ned gets there, the men know that Aegon, Rhaegar and Aerys are all dead. They know and they're still there. Ned mentions Viserys on Dragonstone, obliquely offering them an out. They do not give a single solitary fuck that their king (if Jon is a bastard) is alone on Dragonstone without a Kingsguard. Alarm bells should be ringing. Forgive me for nitpicking but I don't actually see the force of this argument. There was no guarantee Viserys or Daenerys would escape Dragonstone and if they didn't then Rhaegar's bastard son could have been a better alternative to nothing in their eyes if they didn't. I don't see this as a valid excuse for giving up a bastard Jon Snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I don't know what you are talking about. Aerys thought that Tywin was on his side, and the big mistake was opening the gates for Tywin. Jaime was in no way a hostage. The rule is that at least on KG must be with king, and the rule was followed. There was no obligation to go to Aerys because he had a KG with him. It is not a matter of what the KG thought was a good idea. Two were posted to Rhaegar and the other 4 left Aerys at his direction. They had no reason to die when they have an obligation to guard the king, and they can keep that vow by going to Dragonstone. They keep their vow, and the main vow is to protect the king. No he didn't think Tywin was on his side until Tywin showed up at KL at the end of the war. He kept Jaime close to him because he feared Tywin might join the rebels. What rule? Their vows are to protect the king, I find it hard to believe Aerys ordered them to stay in the Tower of Joy the entire war where they are of no use whatsoever. They had an obligation to guard Aerys and failed miserably, they were fuck ups as far as KG goes and realized it when Aerys and Aegon were slaughtered a thousand miles away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Forgive me for nitpicking but I don't actually see the force of this argument. There was no guarantee Viserys or Daenerys would escape Dragonstone and if they didn't then Rhaegar's bastard son could have been a better alternative to nothing in their eyes if they didn't. I don't see this as a valid excuse for giving up a bastard Jon Snow. The Kingsguard guard the king. If Viserys is the king (which he would be if Jon is a bastard), then their duty is to protect him. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 Forgive me for nitpicking but I don't actually see the force of this argument. There was no guarantee Viserys or Daenerys would escape Dragonstone and if they didn't then Rhaegar's bastard son could have been a better alternative to nothing in their eyes if they didn't. I don't see this as a valid excuse for giving up a bastard Jon Snow. The point is that their primary obligation is to guard the king. If Viserys was the king, at least one KG would be obligated to try to get to him. Not one left ToJ to try to get to him--so he must not have been king. Only after the death of Viserys and Daenerys would a bastard Jon even possibly be in line. So the KG would not fail to try to send someone to them so that if they die they are in the right place to defend the person that might be next (but might not, as bastards are probably ineligible to be king and it would then go to Robert in any event as next in line through his Targ grandmother). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 @Applemartini Well firstly classic answering of a question with another question. I would say I'd be glad to answer yours once you answer mine (which preceded yours), but since yours is insultingly simple and borders on the rhetorical I'll go ahead whilst you sidestep a better question; Yes obviously he would be a bigger political threat legitimized as opposed to being as bastard, as anybody would be in any scenario. Still, You are saying; legitimate Jon = Conceal Jon under a false identity for his entire life Bastard Jon = Just spill the beans, I'm sure Bobby Baratheon wont take it to seriously "but as a bastard he (Jon) is politically toothless" I'm actually not saying that Ned should spill the beans to Robert voluntarily; if you look at what I actually wrote, I said no such thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bittersteel Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The Kingsguard guard the king. If Viserys is the king (which he would be if Jon is a bastard), then their duty is to protect him. Period. The fact that most of them don't guard Aerys during Robert's rebellion is enough to disprove that statement. He isn't king if he's not crowned, he's the rightful heir. I don't see them disregarding possible alternatives in case Viserys falls. Their loyalty seems to lie more with Rhaegar (or his memory) it seems to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 No he didn't think Tywin was on his side until Tywin showed up at KL at the end of the war. He kept Jaime close to him because he feared Tywin might join the rebels. What rule? Their vows are to protect the king, I find it hard to believe Aerys ordered them to stay in the Tower of Joy the entire war where they are of no use whatsoever. They had an obligation to guard Aerys and failed miserably, they were fuck ups as far as KG goes and realized it when Aerys and Aegon were slaughtered a thousand miles away. Ned did not think of them as fuck ups. He thought they were some of the most honorable men he ever knew. They had no reason to know that Aerys needed their help and Jaime was already there guarding him, so KG duty was being satisfied. At that time, there was no duty to go to Aerys. Once he and Aegon die, their duty is to make sure that Jon is kept safe ONLY if Jon is king, and Jon is king only if his parents were married. I don't recall whether you are correct about what Aerys thought of Tywin. But that point is not central to this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The point is that their primary obligation is to guard the king. If Viserys was the king, at least one KG would be obligated to try to get to him. Not one left ToJ to try to get to him--so he must not have been king. Only after the death of Viserys and Daenerys would a bastard Jon even possibly be in line. So the KG would not fail to try to send someone to them so that if they die they are in the right place to defend the person that might be next (but might not, as bastards are probably ineligible to be king and it would then go to Robert in any event as next in line through his Targ grandmother). The Targaryens were overthrown, even Barristan submits while Viserys and Dany are still alive. If a man like Barristan Selmy is willing to give up on Viserys so easy why is it so hard to believe the KG who abandoned their king for his son would? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The Targaryens were overthrown, even Barristan submits while Viserys and Dany are still alive. If a man like Barristan Selmy is willing to give up on Viserys so easy why is it so hard to believe the KG who abandoned their king for his son would? I know suggesting such is bordering on heresy here, but is it perhaps possible that the mettle of Barristan Selmy is overrated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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