gnrmjd Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I'm reading Feast for Crows now, and it's really pissing me off reading Jaime's negotiation with the Blackfish. Blackfish continues to make Jaime look like a scumbag because he didn't make good on his oath to Catelyn. Jaime did try to do that oath. But when he got to King's Landing neither Sansa and Arya were there. He had Brienne go to search for Sansa to try to do as he was asked but so far has been unable. And yet Jaime doesn't tell any of this to Blackfish, hence making himself look like a liar and very untrustworthy. I dunno, I get that Blackfish might not believe him anyways, but it bothered me to not see Jaime even try to defend himself and then expect to be able to negotiate. At least he should let it be known that he's trying to do what he promised, but he made it seem like he didn't even care and thus made everything harder for himself for no good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Welcome to the boards, gnrmjd. May you have nice and pleasant time here... :cheers: The thing about this scene is that this is classic Jaime. You remember how Ned found him on the Throne at time of RR, when he said nothing about Aerys' intentions to burn down the city and that by killing him, he saved a lot of lives. Jaime basically did the same thing here. You can call it pride, it may be annoying, but the thing is that this is in perfect harmony with what we know about Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The thing about Jaime is, he's sincere. He genuinely doesn't give a shit how things 'look'. He's a lot like the Hound in that respect...only his Lannister family keeps him from genuinely being the Hound re: chivalry. Or at least, when I say he doesn't care how things look, I mean he cares more how things are. So did he have a good reason for breaking his oath with Aerys? Yes. But that doesn't mean he didn't break it. Same thing here. He's a bottom line guy, in a bottom line business. He expects BF to essentially be the same, in which case his excuses would sound like bleating weakness. He's also honest enough with himself to know that it wasn't his only priority, and maybe things work differently if it was. That's Jamie's thing: love him or hate him, for good or bad, he owns his moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenKing23 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Um, Jaime is kind of a scumbag. Him not explaining himself is like a teenager throwing a hissy fit shouting, "You can't judge me, you don't even know me!" But then again I'm biased so it could just be pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The thing about Jaime is, he's sincere. He genuinely doesn't give a shit how things 'look'. He's a lot like the Hound in that respect...only his Lannister family keeps him from genuinely being the Hound re: chivalry.Or at least, when I say he doesn't care how things look, I mean he cares more how things are. So did he have a good reason for breaking his oath with Aerys? Yes. But that doesn't mean he didn't break it. Same thing here. He's a bottom line guy, in a bottom line business. He expects BF to essentially be the same, in which case his excuses would sound like bleating weakness.He's also honest enough with himself to know that it wasn't his only priority, and maybe things work differently if it was. That's Jamie's thing: love him or hate him, for good or bad, he owns his moments. I disagree. I think it's really the opposite: he cares a little bit too much about his image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I disagree. I think it's really the opposite: he cares a little bit too much about his image.I think a lifetime ago he cared a LOT. I think he is now fuelled for skepticism and disregard for externals in a way only zealous disillusionment can fuel someone. Think of his internal monologue and decision when in control of the White Book. Unflattering truth stands, excuses do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnrmjd Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 I guess you guys are right, I just thought he had changed a bit after the third book. It's possible the TV show's portrayal is having too much of an effect on me. Still I expected him to at least recognize that the circumstances were bigger than pride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I think a lifetime ago he cared a LOT. I think he is now fuelled for skepticism and disregard for externals in a way only zealous disillusionment can fuel someone. Think of his internal monologue and decision when in control of the White Book. Unflattering truth stands, excuses do not. But his whole reaction with the White Book shows how much he cares about reputation. He wanted to write "and he marched in pursue of the King's justice" (or whatever he put it) and he wanted it recorded in the book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 But his whole reaction with the White Book shows how much he cares about reputation. He wanted to write "and he marched in pursue of the King's justice" (or whatever he put it) and he wanted it recorded in the book...see my op. I say that what I mean by he doesn't care is that he cares for truth more. Which is why he makes the choice he does with the White Book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor227 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 What was he going to say to the Blackfish? He said that the girls weren't in King's Landing when he arrived. That's that. He could have elaborated on the Brienne thing, but -why-? Not only does it put her mission in jeopardy the more people know about it (especially people who might be after the girls themselves), but he basically just set her out into the world with no clue where to go and no leads. If the Blackfish thought his excuses were feeble before, that would just make him -pity- Jaime. Arming and giving Brienne authority was a personal act, and on the scale of 'stuff that has a hope in hell of succeeding', it doesn't even have a snowball's chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Jaime simultaneously cares about his image but doesn't want to care due to pride. So it makes him feel bad when he is disrespected, but he doesn't explain himself. But deep inside he wants to be accepted and he even has a desire to confess. Hence his fixation on honor and his confession to Brienne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheButcherCrow Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 By what right does the trout judge the lion? By what right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Jaime simultaneously cares about his image but doesn't want to care due to pride. So it makes him feel bad when he is disrespected, but he doesn't explain himself. But deep inside he wants to be accepted and he even has a desire to confess. Hence his fixation on honor and his confession to Brienne.See, I see the confession in exactly the opposite context. THE defining act of his life, and he doesn't tell ANYONE his reasoning for almost 2 decades, and then only after near mortal trauma and intoxication?As he makes every choice not to tell anyone for 15 years, through all that did to define him in everyone else's eyes, he dies not know that come book 3 he'll confess it. So that every-day choice he kept making, that speaks a kazillion times louder than the confession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 See, I see the confession in exactly the opposite context.THE defining act of his life, and he doesn't tell ANYONE his reasoning for almost 2 decades, and then only after near mortal trauma and intoxication?As he makes every choice not to tell anyone for 15 years, through all that did to define him in everyone else's eyes, he dies not know that come book 3 he'll confess it. So that every-day choice he kept making, that speaks a kazillion times louder than the confession. As I said he doesn't explain himself. Obviously the man doesn't want to explain himself but it is obvious the whole issue of not being respected is eating him up inside. Which is a reason for his change once he loses his hand and meets Brienne. Anyway, it is eating him up so much so he became someone else, devoted entirely to Cersei. So my interpretation is he both doesn't want to admit his secrets both for pride and even practical reasons when it comes to incest but also wants to, and even does to both Catelyn and Brienne. He even wants to come clean on the incest at some point which is a terrible idea. It is possible to have someone who 99 times out of hundred wont tell you something due to pride but it will bother him that you don't accept him. So despite the circumstances, I don't think it came from nowhere, he wanted to finally tell the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 But his whole reaction with the White Book shows how much he cares about reputation. He wanted to write "and he marched in pursue of the King's justice" (or whatever he put it) and he wanted it recorded in the book It's not reputation what he cares about there. He realises he has never done anything worthy in his whole life, compared to other men like Dayne or Barristan. And he's right. In Riverrun, the Blackfish simply makes him notice that he, the Kingslayer, it's a lie, and he has no honour. Before that, he didn't care about not having honour, now he does, and his honour is a horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnrmjd Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 What was he going to say to the Blackfish? He said that the girls weren't in King's Landing when he arrived. He didn't even say that. When Blackfish asks where they are, he just says "I don't have them." And then ignores the issue, only saying that the oaths he made were made at swordpoint (implying through his words, whether intentional or not, that he had no intention and no care about whether he returned the girls or not.) We know that Jaime DOES in fact care, and he certainly didn't do anything to defend himself at all. Even just saying the girls were not in King's Landing when he got there is better than acting like he didn't even attempt to keep the oath, and then is expecting to be trusted. And he does comment that Blackfish looks at him like Ned Stark did, but it always also annoyed me that Jaime didn't even try to explain himself to Ned Stark. He just ASSUMES that Ned would not have listened (Well he says he's positive), but I'm not 100% sure whether he's right. It seems like it really is just pride, and that a lot of the reasons Jaime is hated is because he doesn't even try to present himself in a positive light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 It's not reputation what he cares about there. He realises he has never done anything worthy in his whole life, compared to other men like Dayne or Barristan. And he's right. In Riverrun, the Blackfish simply makes him notice that he, the Kingslayer, it's a lie, and he has no honour. Before that, he didn't care about not having honour, now he does, and his honour is a horse. I think he sees killing Aerys as something somewhat worthy, hence his line about being reviled for his finest act. My interpretation is that he didn't come clean to Ned (or Blackfish) because he just hates it when other people judge him, even if they judge him in a positive light, like near the end of aSoS when Brienne tells him he's a man of honor (or a good man, I don't remember) and he gets uncomfortable and basically tells her to get out Then, when he confronts Edmure (and here I think I agree with Don Diego d'Arrynos) he's trying to keep his oath to Cat (in his own way) but to do so he has to be an absolute dick to Edmure, but it's like a persona that he dons, like trying to be Tywin (especially after Genna messed with his head a bit by telling him he's not Tywin's son), and he notices the people witnessing how he's threatening Edmure and he goes "who cares, let them hear" So ultimately, like Tyrion but not quite, he decides to disguise himself as the monster they all think he is (but not really becoming like that), even if he accepts he'll always be known as the Kinslayer and no one is going to thank him for his kindness. So I agree with Don Diego in a sense, he stops caring about what other people say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodofwinterfell Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Pride. As much as I love Jaime, he annoys the hell out of me sometimes because of his pride. Not telling anyone about Aerys and, in this case, telling the Blackfish about Sansa escaping are examples of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackFlame Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I think Jaime said it best, by what right does the wolf judge the lion? The Blackfish has plenty of blood on his hands. Besides it was a negotiation Jaime was dealing with him from a position of strength the Blackfish was the one with everything to lose and they both knew it. Jaime not offering an explanation to someone who A. he felt his inferior and B. who it would likely not have mattered to anyway was just a subtle reminder to the Blackfish just how precarious his situation was. Victors don't explain themselves to those they have achieved victory over. A little bit of Tywin apparently worked its way in there after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I'm reading Feast for Crows now, and it's really pissing me off reading Jaime's negotiation with the Blackfish. Blackfish continues to make Jaime look like a scumbag because he didn't make good on his oath to Catelyn. Jaime did try to do that oath. But when he got to King's Landing neither Sansa and Arya were there. He had Brienne go to search for Sansa to try to do as he was asked but so far has been unable. And yet Jaime doesn't tell any of this to Blackfish, hence making himself look like a liar and very untrustworthy. I dunno, I get that Blackfish might not believe him anyways, but it bothered me to not see Jaime even try to defend himself and then expect to be able to negotiate. At least he should let it be known that he's trying to do what he promised, but he made it seem like he didn't even care and thus made everything harder for himself for no good reason.It's so in character for Jaime. It's like Aerys, when people start judging him and clearly don't care about his reasons, his approach, immature as it is, is a huge fuck you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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