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Anybody hate how much Jaime refused to tell Blackfish?


gnrmjd

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The black fish reminds him because, Jaime once again is doing what is in his best interest and minimizing the importance of his oath to Catelyn. Lets remember that Jaime's attempted escape put the the war camp into chaos and most famalies were calling for Jaime's life. Catelyn by letting Jaime go saved his life, and she figured Jaime would recognize this and do right by saving her girls. Jaime pragmaticly takes his oaths nonchalantly even the serious ones and this has been his problem throughout the whole series. The BF REMINDS jAIME because how can one who breaks so many oaths hold up the ones he is telling the BF currently. I would not trust Jaime either. Finally when JAIME meets LS he will be reminded of the oath he has broken.


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I think Jaime's response was entirely appropriate, I can't imagine that there would have been anything that he could have said that would have convinced the Blackfish that Jaime was doing what he felt was just and fair.



The Blackfish's first word to him after all is 'Kingslayer', which makes it quite clear what he thinks of Jaime and his honour. Why should he believe Jaime's quixotic story of giving half of Ice to Brienne to search for Sansa? And even if he did wouldn't he think that this was to get the girl back into Lannister possession?



In the wake of the Red Wedding there are no words that could have won round the Blackfish, which is why Jaime releases Edmure.




That scene is a great GRRM moment. We have a point in time in which the characters could both benefit from having a free and open conversation but because of their relative situations it is absolutely impossible for them to communicate - they are both burdened and trapped by their backgrounds, the events that have gone on around them and the parties they are associated with. And as readers we can feel torn - able to take both sides, this is just the kind of effect that GRRM works towards, that we can feel deeply exactly what isn't said and what can't be said between two characters.


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Woouldn't it be a betrayal though?



Sansa is wanted for Joffrey's death. Due to her dissapearance she has a reached a semilegendary status, since there tales of her transforming to a beast.



Besides, she is still Tyrion's wife and let us not forget what Cersei said






"When I am done with her, she will be begging the Stranger for his kiss"


Telling Blackfish the truth would be pointless.


Blackfish would likely not believe him but even if he did, so what?


Nothing could be said that would make the situation easier and by telling BF, there


was a possibility that Jaime jeopardised Brienne's mission.


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Some good comments.



I feel it would have undermined the power of the threats he made later by trying to make excuses and justify himself to Blackfish. As soon as he saw Blackfish's attitude, he was keeping the power card up his sleeve and wasn't going to risk eroding that by trying to seek BF's approval. He wanted BF to surrender to him. It would have been a braver tack to try and justify himself to BF in order to reach an amicable peace settlement without threats, but he held all the cards and wasn't prepared to take that risk, both strategically, and personally. You can't go from "forgive me, I'm a decent person" to "I shall go Rains of Castamere on your asses" without diluting the message.



In another way, holding back these bits of information- ie, why he killed the king, and why he sent Brienne out also creates a protective shield. Jamie can think to himself how prejudiced these fools are, who rush in to judge him without knowing all the facts, making their judgement worthless. If he was to share the whole truth, and they still judged him harshly- well, that would be harder to bear and make it harder for Jamie to live with his former actions.



More reasons: Once people make up their minds, they don't want to change them and be made to look wrong and prejudiced. They will try to poke holes in your excuses and see them from their own personal slant in order to prove themselves right. At least, prideful people do, which is perhaps Jamie projecting his own, and his family's values on others. So Jamie saying "I sent Brienne after them to keep them safe" would have been seen in Jamies eyes in BF's position as: "Brienne went home, and I'm spinning that to gain your trust just to trick you". Further, in front of Ned, his family had sat out the war before rushing in to win some favour with Robert, so already, they had lost respect. I'm assuming Jamie knew Tywin would have killed the children Rains of Castamere style rather than imprison them, so really, bleating that he only killed Aerys to save people really would have risked Ned putting him down in public and not bothering to check out his story which would have made it 10 times worse.



Or it's a case of Jamie judging "men of honour" as inflexible, rigid fools as part of his contempt for those who stood by and did nothing under Aerys, so by prejudging the Blackfish and not trying to justify himself, he is diminishing the other man in his head and recreating that scenario- ie, "these men of honour are rigid fools who never know all the facts- so what I did was right"




There is also the strong human impulse to connect the dots and eliminate irregularities in order to gain more meaning (prejudice / gestalt theory) Stabbing the king, and cuckolding the next king with his sister, to sire the third really isn't synonymous with trust, so pleading that he sent Brienne to look for the Stark girls really is a hopeless olive branch at this stage.



I agree it is eating Jamie up inside, but again, pride demands that he doesn't acknowledge it. The lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep. If he does feel concerned, it is a weakness and an insecurity that needs repressing in his view.



It's all very cynical, but I think sadly, more often that not, Jamie's approach probably is the right one for all the reasons stated- that is, unless he finds himself in a position where he is stripped of all authority and his life depends on how others judge his past deeds. What are the chances of that happening?!


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I'm reading Feast for Crows now, and it's really pissing me off reading Jaime's negotiation with the Blackfish.

Blackfish continues to make Jaime look like a scumbag because he didn't make good on his oath to Catelyn. Jaime did try to do that oath. But when he got to King's Landing neither Sansa and Arya were there. He had Brienne go to search for Sansa to try to do as he was asked but so far has been unable. And yet Jaime doesn't tell any of this to Blackfish, hence making himself look like a liar and very untrustworthy.

Well, Jaime should've surrended and went back to his cell then if he wanted to be seen as honorable on this by the Blackfish. No Sansa and Arya back meant the release deal was off.

But of course, he only tries to play the honorable guy when convenient for him.

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Well, Jaime should've surrended and went back to his cell then if he wanted to be seen as honorable on this by the Blackfish. No Sansa and Arya back meant the release deal was off.

But of course, he only tries to play the honorable guy when convenient for him.

Let's not make this into an I hate Jaime thread?

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Um, Jaime is kind of a scumbag. Him not explaining himself is like a teenager throwing a hissy fit shouting, "You can't judge me, you don't even know me!" But then again I'm biased so it could just be pride.

I love Jaime, but yeah, you're pretty much exactly right in your teenager analogy.

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Look, I like Jaime but in this parley the Blackfish owned him. Jaime knew that he could lay siege to Riverrun but it would take a long time or he could storm the castle and take hideous losses. "I know that tune. Do you sing it to the Rains of Castamere?" Jaime had no bargaining chip until he threatened Edmure with sending his child via trebuchet. Again, Jaime was a bit out of his element with the Blackfish on this one. And thats not an indictment on Jaime; them's the breaks. "Are you calling me a coward?"- "No. I'm calling you a cripple, ser".


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Jaime - like Cersei - is great at backchat, but some of his best lines are internal. For me A horse gives the moral victory to Jaime here, though no one else in-universe will ever know. Rather like Cersei's internal view of the Kettleblack horse's name, Midnight: 'How wonderfully original'. Something about horses seems to bring out the twins' most biting thoughts...


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Jaime - like Cersei - is great at backchat, but some of his best lines are internal. For me A horse gives the moral victory to Jaime here, though no one else in-universe will ever know. Rather like Cersei's internal view of the Kettleblack horse's name, Midnight: 'How wonderfully original'. Something about horses seems to bring out the twins' most biting thoughts...

It's how both differ from Tyrion who just can't fire those lines off when he hears them

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I think a lifetime ago he cared a LOT. I think he is now fuelled for skepticism and disregard for externals in a way only zealous disillusionment can fuel someone. Think of his internal monologue and decision when in control of the White Book. Unflattering truth stands, excuses do not.

I think he still cares a lot. Think about his decision to send Brienne looking for Sansa: He does not send Brienne after her, because she is a helpless girl in need of rescuing, but because she is his last chance at honour (original citation). When Jeyne Poole gets sent North, he does not lift a finger, even though stories about Ramsay Bolton should be known in South, because he cannot fulfill an oath by rescuing her.Sansa for him is not a girl, that has been thoroughly abused, but a means for him to fulfill an oath and thereby regain some of the glory he lost with his decisions.

And his entry in the White Book lacked a lot of important things, too. If he were really honest with himself, he should have written about crippling Bran and committing high treason by fucking Cersei, but he does not really care about the damage he has caused. In AFFC he thinks more than a dozen times about Cersei sleeping with Kettleblack and Lancel and MoonBoy, but only one time about crippling Bran (and in this instance his major regret seems to be, that Cersei is livid, that Bran survived it. He wanders through the Riverlands thinking about the destruction of war, while at the same time completely blocking out, that this war was mainly caused by him fathering bastards on the queen and that he even foresaw this possibility by joking about the "War for Cersei's Cunt".

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The black fish reminds him because, Jaime once again is doing what is in his best interest and minimizing the importance of his oath to Catelyn. Lets remember that Jaime's attempted escape put the the war camp into chaos and most famalies were calling for Jaime's life. Catelyn by letting Jaime go saved his life, and she figured Jaime would recognize this and do right by saving her girls. Jaime pragmaticly takes his oaths nonchalantly even the serious ones and this has been his problem throughout the whole series. The BF REMINDS jAIME because how can one who breaks so many oaths hold up the ones he is telling the BF currently. I would not trust Jaime either. Finally when JAIME meets LS he will be reminded of the oath he has broken.

A lot of people seem to forget, that Jaime swore to Catelyn to never take up arms against Starks and Tullys (which the Blackfish probably knows), but now he is in Riverrun at the front of an army and besieging the castle of Catelyn's family and threatening to trebuchet his niece. Why does Jaime expect the Blackfish to trust him, if all of his former oaths have been broken by him?

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