A Feast for the Dead, a Snow in the Tombs, a Dream in Dust

[Hrafntýr]

Great OP, Kyoshi, I really like the idea that these are two parts of the same dream.

This feast alludes death, imo. I think there is something about believing those dead gather together in a feast. Even in our world, there is thought in christian mythology that there is an eternal feast in Heaven (or something).

I wouldn't be so sure that the vision isn't the RW. Visions aren't always literal. Didn't Dany also saw a mummer's dragon? Can't remember. But, I would say that the King with the wolf's head is Jon. Jon is a dragon, a Targaryen, who is being passed as a Stark, hence, wearing a wolf's head. His whole appearance is a disguise, a "wolf skin" so to speak as his father is actually a dragon. So, combining this with my paragraph above, I suppose both Dany and Jon might meet each other in death. We know Jon is "dead" after he's been stabbed and Dany is probably going through another "mystical" trip if she's taken to Vaes Dothraki to be proclaimed the Stallion. If there is a "beyond" to go after or during "time out", then they will go and see each other for the first time. After all, the Wolf King's eyes "followed Dany with mute appeal".

I think Apple Martini also started a thread about that Feast from the vision not being the RW but i can't remember what was about.

Despite Ran's post, linked upthread, about not looking into mythology as a source, I think that the "feast of the dead" is a widely enough attested motif that we're not getting into obscure territory by considering the basic outlines of this motif, that the boundaries between the living and the dead are broken. JonCon's Red Beard's post brought to mind the Gaelic festival of Samhain, during which the spirits are at large and are feasted by the living, but which also prominently featured disguises. (Incidentally, it's a holiday especially associated with both kingship and the onset of winter/darkness.)

What I find interesting is the way that toward the end of Theon's dream the boundaries between his and Jon's dreams start to blur, insofar as spirits from the crypts start to make an appearance: Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard and those others with grim faces. To me the Theon/Jon connection here might be that Theon is the one responsible for waking the spirits of the Stark Kings of Winter and the Lords, through his responsibility for removing the Stark in Winterfell, while perhaps Jon is being set up as the one to lead those spirits? Jon's thoughts that he doesn't belong could be psychological resistance to assuming his identity as a Stark (if he already subconsciously knows this), or it could be that his main role is as a Snow, or even that he has to go still deeper into the crypts, that he doesn't belong in those upper levels where just the Stark lords are, but needs to go to where the Kings of Winter reside.

Also, even if the HotU vision isn't entirely dismissed, I do think it should be bracketed; like JonCon's Red Beard says, I think that the man with a wolf's head in the vision mostly communicates "Stark," or someone disguised as a Stark.

[bemused]

Lots of interesting ideas on this thread..

I haven't read the earlier thread(s?) so maybe someone has already brought up this possibility, somewhere :

Dany's vision in the house of the undying may be showing her Theon .

In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal –

A dead man with the head of a wolf. -

There are ghosts in Winterfell, he thought, and I am one of them. ...The Theon of his youth in Winterfell is dead...And there's this exchange with Barbrey Dustin...

(Barbrey) "... Why do you love the Starks?”

“I …” Theon put a gloved hand against a pillar. “… I wanted to be one of them …”

“And never could. We have more in common than you know, my lord. But come.”

On some level, he was trying to impersonate a Stark.

He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter,

When he took Winterfell, Theon styled himself The Prince of Winterfell .. almost a king.. his crown is iron because he's Ironborn.. The leg of lamb sceptre may have double meaning - the world will believe he killed the two Stark boys .. and he knows two other children were murdered in their place.. Even if he's eventually absolved of one crime , he'll still be guilty of the other... This is what his "rule" will be remembered for.. the murder of children is the "right" by which he ruled.. (Right of rulership being symbolised by a sceptre)

At the same time, we know, and Theon will come to know in hindsight, that he, too was a lamb being led to the slaughter by Ramsay. ( And Theon made that possible, himself.)

His eyes followed Dany with mute appeal –

In this case ,it isn't an appeal for vengeance , justice, rescue .. but for understanding, if not forgiveness. Perhaps a chance to make some small restitution. To be seen as a man.. all the things he wants to pray for in the godswood in ADWD , but finds so hard to articulate.

[Julia H.]

A fantastic idea for a thread and lots of fascinating posts! I'm still digesting all the info and the ideas I've read here, and I simply love the fact that these dreams / visions have so many different interpretations. I have always interpreted the wolf-king vision as an image of the Red Wedding, but now I really like both the Jon-interpretation and the Theon-interpretation.

The king being dead is a bit disturbing if it is Jon, but as long as it is only a symbolic death / coma, I'm fine with it. Theon can also be seen as symbolically dead. An interpretation with a "symbolically" dead character is certainly more interesting than one with a character that is literally dead because in this case the "mute appeal" is not just about revenge but something more meaningful.

I'll be back.

[Modesty Lannister]

Great thread, great work OP and everyone else. Literally. This is how an ideal thread should look.

I was always bothered by the symbol of a lamb in king's hand in Dany's HOTU visions. It somehow did not fit with the RW. Sacrificial lamb strongly resonates Christianity, which is not a part of ASOIAF although the faith of Seven was inspired by some elements of Roman-Catholicism, but not Christianity as a whole.

But, the lamb is significant, because why would GRRM feature it so prominently otherwise? The only symbolism linked to a lamb in ASOIAF is the Great Shepard, the Lhazareene lamb god who teaches us that all men are but one flock. So, by holding a butchered lamb in his hands, the king with the iron crown is pointing out that the flock has been thorn to pieces. Is this a silent appeal to Dany to be a reuniter of men as one flock?

As for who the king is, I never thought it was Robb per se. The wolf symbolism obviously refers to the Starks. The symbolism of iron refers to the kings of Winter, not anyone from the recent history of Planetos. Kings of Winter have iron swords on their graves in the crypts.

The king is silent, because he is long dead. The way I read it, it is a silent appeal by the ancient Starks for Dany to rediscover the old ways, the forgotten knowledge and use it to unite all men.

CotF are keepers of that knowledge, but Dany has no knowledge of that yet. However, by liberating slaves, she has instinctively set herself onto the right path. Also, in her last soul searching chapter in ADWD, Dany returns to the Targaryen old ways. I cannot quote her last words or thoughts in the book, because I don't have access to PDFs right now, but they go along the lines of fire and blood being her real nature that she should follow. This foreshadows a big twist in Daenerys' plot in TWOW and her most probable invasion of Westeros.

[Kyoshi]

Many Thanks, everyone! I really like all the contributions. Some Ideas I never even thought about.

What if the allusions to the Red Wedding & and as an yet fulfilled future (HUD vision)? One does not need to be wrong for the other to be true. [...]

That's also my opinion.

Great OP, Kyoshi, I really like the idea that these are two parts of the same dream.

Despite Ran's post, linked upthread, about not looking into mythology as a source, I think that the "feast of the dead" is a widely enough attested motif that we're not getting into obscure territory by considering the basic outlines of this motif, that the boundaries between the living and the dead are broken. JonCon's Red Beard's post brought to mind the Gaelic festival of Samhain, during which the spirits are at large and are feasted by the living, but which also prominently featured disguises. (Incidentally, it's a holiday especially associated with both kingship and the onset of winter/darkness.)

What I find interesting is the way that toward the end of Theon's dream the boundaries between his and Jon's dreams start to blur, insofar as spirits from the crypts start to make an appearance: Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard and those others with grim faces. To me the Theon/Jon connection here might be that Theon is the one responsible for waking the spirits of the Stark Kings of Winter and the Lords, through his responsibility for removing the Stark in Winterfell, while perhaps Jon is being set up as the one to lead those spirits? Jon's thoughts that he doesn't belong could be psychological resistance to assuming his identity as a Stark (if he already subconsciously knows this), or it could be that his main role is as a Snow, or even that he has to go still deeper into the crypts, that he doesn't belong in those upper levels where just the Stark lords are, but needs to go to where the Kings of Winter reside.

Also, even if the HotU vision isn't entirely dismissed, I do think it should be bracketed; like JonCon's Red Beard says, I think that the man with a wolf's head in the vision mostly communicates "Stark," or someone disguised as a Stark.

I especially like the bolded part. In my opinion it's not so far-fetched that the author would borrow from religious text, even if loosely. I'm not Christian but the concept of a "sacrificial lamb", "lost lamb", "shepherd" is one that is very familiar to me. I could be wrong but it seems to be one of the driving themes of the religion. It does not seem so far-fetched to me that GRRM would incorporate some of these themes into his work. It even makes sense since it's such a familiar concept and readers will automatically understand whatever it is he is trying to convey. At least that's how I think writers work, they try to build a world to which readers can relate.

<SNIP>

I'd never considered Theon as the "king". It would make sense since in his own dream Theon is the only living person; if the HOTU vision is another version of the dream, Dany would only see a man pretending to be a Wolf. This ties in nicely. So now we have Jon, Theon and Bran...we just need to put our crackpot minds together.

<SNIP>

Just like you (I think), I'm very fascinated with the mute appeal and what it might mean. And please be back.

[...]I was always bothered by the symbol of a lamb in king's hand in Dany's HOTU visions. It somehow did not fit with the RW. Sacrificial lamb strongly resonates Christianity, which is not a part of ASOIAF although the faith of Seven was inspired by some elements of Roman-Catholicism, but not Christianity as a whole.

But, the lamb is significant, because why would GRRM feature it so prominently otherwise? The only symbolism linked to a lamb in ASOIAF is the Great Shepard, the Lhazareene lamb god who teaches us that all men are but one flock. So, by holding a butchered lamb in his hands, the king with the iron crown is pointing out that the flock has been thorn to pieces. Is this a silent appeal to Dany to be a reuniter of men as one flock?

As for who the king is, I never thought it was Robb per se. The wolf symbolism obviously refers to the Starks. The symbolism of iron refers to the kings of Winter, not anyone from the recent history of Planetos. Kings of Winter have iron swords on their graves in the crypts.

The king is silent, because he is long dead. The way I read it, it is a silent appeal by the ancient Starks for Dany to rediscover the old ways, the forgotten knowledge and use it to unite all men.

CotF are keepers of that knowledge, but Dany has no knowledge of that yet. However, by liberating slaves, she has instinctively set herself onto the right path. Also, in her last soul searching chapter in ADWD, Dany returns to the Targaryen old ways. I cannot quote her last words or thoughts in the book, because I don't have access to PDFs right now, but they go along the lines of fire and blood being her real nature that she should follow. This foreshadows a big twist in Daenerys' plot in TWOW and her most probable invasion of Westeros.

The bolded part is exactly what I feel. Though I must admit the green part is another thing I hadn't considered.

In her last chapter Dany says something along the lines, "dragons do not plant trees," I think there was also mention of fire and blood. I also don't have my books else I would quote it. She also decides to leave Drogon behind even though she has bonded with and ridden him. She knows she cannot ride either of the other two dragons (as suggested by an earlier conversation with Quentyn). Despite her knowledge, she leaves Drogon. It could be significant :dunno:

[Modesty Lannister]

Despite her knowledge, she leaves Drogon. It could be significant :dunno:

No, you forgot the ending. She uses her reason and decides to leave Drogon. She almost dies in the process. And then Drogon shows up and she mounts him and has these thoughts ... I will get back to you when I get back home.

[Kyoshi]

No, you forgot the ending. She uses her reason and decides to leave Drogon. She almost dies in the process. And then Drogon shows up and she mounts him and has these thoughts ... I will get back to you when I get back home.

Thanks for the correction.

[Winter'sFallen]

His eyes followed Dany with mute appeal –

In this case ,it isn't an appeal for vengeance , justice, rescue .. but for understanding, if not forgiveness. Perhaps a chance to make some small restitution. To be seen as a man.. all the things he wants to pray for in the godswood in ADWD , but finds so hard to articulate.

Really like this theory a lot, that Theon is the Iron corwned Wolf-King, esp when you consider "paying the iron price that seems so important to the iron born. But then consider the audience of the HUD, Dany

Dany has been trying to figure out who she is, where she is from..."fire & blood", which is very similar to "we do not sow" in my opinion. Targs & IB are not known as uniters, so what does Dany do...she tries to rule, a slave city with no respect to their customs & legacies, you could almost say she is a direct parallel to Theon in this interpretation.

In her last chapter Dany says something along the lines, "dragons do not plant trees," I think there was also mention of fire and blood. I also don't have my books else I would quote it. She also decides to leave Drogon behind even though she has bonded with and ridden him. She knows she cannot ride either of the other two dragons (as suggested by an earlier conversation with Quentyn). Despite her knowledge, she leaves Drogon. It could be significant :dunno:

Dany is very much trying to escape her legacy throughout ADwD, to the point she literally flies away from all of her responsibilities, real & imagined. Really, why should she care so much about Westeros, except for the dreams of ruling that were more Viserys than her own.

No, you forgot the ending. She uses her reason and decides to leave Drogon. She almost dies in the process. And then Drogon shows up and she mounts him and has these thoughts ... I will get back to you when I get back home.

But she cannot run from the dragons, she needs them & they need her ultimately. I think she has seen that much of what she has done in Slavers Bay is folly, much like Theon in WF...either they can conquer it, burn it to the ground in Dothraki, IB fashion, or truly be a ruler for the people. Theon will never be able to do that because as someone pointed out either his real or alleged crime will haunt him, there is no other choice. But Dany does have that chance for redemption, but she will have to leave Slaver's Bay & accept that she cannot "fix" that part of the world. Why does anyone follow her anyway if not for the Dragons, she's not that much better off than Viserys honestly....so she needs to go find the Blue Rose in the Wall of ice..and actually become part of the solution she so desperately wants to be. Because, let's face it, the series is shaping up so that much of what happens in the South is irrelevant if the Others breach the Wall with winter coming.

[Modesty Lannister]

I found the quote:

You took Meereen, he told her, yet still you lingered. “To be a queen.”

You are a queen, her bear said. In Westeros. “It is such a long way,” she complained. “I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl.”

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

“Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass. ADWD, Daenerys.

So, this whole feverish scene in the Dothraki sea is deeply soul searching. And again, Daenerys is made to reach the conclusion that in order to go forward she must go back, in order to go north, she must go south and in order to go west she must go east. She went south, she will go back to Mareene and she will reach Westeros from the east in Victarions ships passing through the old Valyria. But, above all, she acknowledged who she really is and started to return to Targaryen ways. It goes hand in hand with the HotU vision.

[Julia H.]

OK, so I knew that I had read an excellent post connecting Jon's dream, Theon's dream and Jaime's dream (where he also meets the dead). It took me some time to find this post, but here it is finally. It was written by Ragnorak. Enjoy:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99133-the-jon-snow-reread-project-part-3/?p=5248274

I recommend reading the entire post, but I would like to highlight a few points that are relevant to the characters dreaming different parts of the same shared dream (as this was a point made in the OP):

In Jaime's dream, he has a sword burning silvery blue.

“The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.”

…

No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark ...

In Jon's dream:

A light has gone out somewhere.

That seems to be a reference to Jaime's dream...

Jon is in the crypts of Winterfell. Jaime is below Casterly Rock.

“A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?”

“Doom.” No bear, he knew. No lion. “Only doom.”

Apparently, direwolves are doom. Jon sees a direwolf – grey and ghastly, spotted with blood; and Theon specifically sees Grey Wind with Robb.

Ragnorak also points out the Father theme in these dreams.

Jon is looking for his father in the crypt, but he can't find his father in Winterfell - how could he? His father is in Jaime's part of the dream. However, Jaime, too, thinks of Eddard Stark at first (Eddard, who is in Theon's part of the dream), but it is Rhaegar who actually appears to him and talks to Jaime about his children.

Jon is looking for his father, Jaime is left alone in the dark by his father. As I've said, Rhaegar's children are mentioned - with a reference to Jaime's responsibility, but Joffrey, Jaime's own, unacknowledged son, also appears. It would be an interesting conclusion to reach that Theon's dream may be connected to the Father theme as well. But then the father figure in Theon's dream can only be Eddard Stark (and I don't want to go into this right now).

Another unifying theme is guilt: Jon's guilt over Ygritte, Jaime's guilt over his broken oath and slain KG brothers, Theon's guilt over Robb and those who died because of him. Their guilty feelings are all centred around the theme of betrayal.

[Kyoshi]

[sNIP]

My personal opinion is that what is happening in the South is irrelevant. Without the game of thrones, the struggle for power and ultimately, the War of the Five Kings, winter befalls on a very prepared land. Thus there is no point in hammering the Stark words: Winter is Coming. But as things stand now, there are limited food supplies, population decline, sick and maimed knights/soldiers, and other problems. If the others are the ultimate baddies then the game of thrones has pretty much played a huge role in lowering the probability of victory. It's like the severe winters of WW1, it's not so much the actual battle that defeats the fighters but the "smaller" things like hunger, sickness and hopelessness.

I found the quote: [...]

So, this whole feverish scene in the Dothraki sea is deeply soul searching. And again, Daenerys is made to reach the conclusion that in order to go forward she must go back, in order to go north, she must go south and in order to go west she must go east. She went south, she will go back to Mareene and she will reach Westeros from the east in Victarions ships passing through the old Valyria. But, above all, she acknowledged who she really is and started to return to Targaryen ways. It goes hand in hand with the HotU vision.

Thanks for the quote. I also look at it as "the path you think is right may not be the right one after all." Dany knows the Starks fought against the Targs in the Rebellion so she has no great love for them, understandably so since her whole family was wiped out. Tying this in with the HOTU vision (and assuming that R+L=J is true) it would seem that Dany would have to embrace Jon, all of Jon, Stark and all. It could be something else but I think it may not be so limited to geographical places. Dany has to grow, go to the root of her conscience so to speak, remember who she is and not what Viserys told her :dunno:

OK, so I knew that I had read an excellent post connecting Jon's dream, Theon's dream and Jaime's dream (where he also meets the dead). It took me some time to find this post, but here it is finally. It was written by Ragnorak. Enjoy: [...]

Thanks for the link. It was a really fascinating read. I especially like the theme of the Father. I like how characters look for a person in their dream and we find that person in another dream. I'm smiling to myself as I type this, it's all rather fascinating. EDIT: how Jaime and Jon's dreams both have the line alight has gone out somewhere...simply fascinating.

Characters with the crypts dream:

• Jaime - beneath Casterly Rock (he rules out a bear and lion in the pits but not a direwolf. Looking for Stark but haunted by Rhaegar)
  
• Jon - in the crypts of Winterfell (looking for Father and Uncle but finds a wounded direwolf)
  

Characters at a feast

• Theon - in his dream at the Great Hall of Winterfell (Robb and Grey Wind join the feast)
  
• Bran - at the Harvest Feast in the Great Hall of Winterfell (where we meet Meera and Jojen for the first time)
  
• Daenerys - at the House of the Undying where she sees a wolf "king" and a rose on a wall of ice
  

Dreaming characters

• Jon
  
• Theon
  
• Jaime
  
• Dany (if you count prophecies as dreams)
  

I'm sure if if I put my crackpot mind to work I can come up with something...

[Ellfoy]

Thank you Julia H. I was searching for this thread and post as well. I think that Jon, Theon and Jaime's dream are much more connected than Daenerys's vision even if the three feast (HotU, Theon's dream and Bran's feast) must be connected as well.

Thanks for the link. It was a really fascinating read. I especially like the theme of the Father. I like how characters look for a person in their dream and we find that person in another dream. I'm smiling to myself as I type this, it's all rather fascinating. EDIT: how Jaime and Jon's dreams both have the line alight has gone out somewhere...simply fascinating.

Characters with the crypts dream:

• Jaime - beneath Casterly Rock (he rules out a bear and lion in the pits but not a direwolf. Looking for Stark but haunted by Rhaegar)
  
• Jon - in the crypts of Winterfell (looking for Father and Uncle but finds a wounded direwolf)
  

Characters at a feast

• Theon - in his dream at the Great Hall of Winterfell (Robb and Grey Wind join the feast)
  
• Bran - at the Harvest Feast in the Great Hall of Winterfell (where we meet Meera and Jojen for the first time)
  
• Daenerys - at the House of the Undying where she sees a wolf "king" and a rose on a wall of ice
  

Dreaming characters

• Jon
  
• Theon
  
• Jaime
  
• Dany (if you count prophecies as dreams)
  

I'm sure if if I put my crackpot mind to work I can come up with something...

The thing is I don't think that Jaime is in Casterly Rock. He say it himself that he has never seem a place like that there: "There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. “What place is this?” We know that he had this dream when he is sleeping on a weirwood's stump. The weirwoods are all connected as we know through Bran's POV and remembers.

Could Jaime also be somewhere beneath winterfell as well ?

- The water: There is pools in winterfell.

- An unknown place: it seems that there is lot of things beneath Winterfell, hidden ways, maybe tunnels, so why not a cave ?...

- As Julia H has pointed out, there is no lions, nor bears but direwolves.

- As Jon, Jaime has as well "no choice but to descend"

As weirwoods are connected, maybe the crypt are all connected in dreams and Jaime is stuck somewhere between Casterly Rock and Winterfell ?

Three parts of the same dream :

- Places : Jon, in the crypts, can hear the drums of the feast that took place in winterfell's Great Hall in Theon's dream. Jon also point out that a "light has gone out somewhere" which correspond with the light from Jaime's sword going out. I would say that Jon and Jaime are both beneath winterfell with Jaime being in a secret cave not too far from the crypt or connected to the crypt.

- Themes : The dead and family.

The revelation:

Many thinks that Jon while being coma next book will finish his dream and I agree. Some thinks that he will as well discover is parentage there. It is possible.

We know that Jon is condemned to go deeper in the crypt. He pass the Kings of Winter but he is not afraid of them, then comes the Lord of Winterfell, and Jon is still somewhat searching for his family, particulary for his father as the same time that he is claiming that he doesn't belong here because according him he is not a Stark. But he has to keep going deeper in the crypt anyway and what is the last tomb in the crypt ? Lyanna's. Jon's dream is clearly about his struggle with his identity, and the fact that he doesn't want to finish the dream, that he is terrified, is because he is unknowngly scared of finding the truth about his parentage.

Then, we have Theon's dream about the dead Starks as well with an emphasis on Lyanna : "The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna". How can Theon possibly dream of Lyanna with a crown of blue roses ? He can't know the importance of that crown. Nor he can't know the detail of her death "the white gown spattered with gore". And there also the fact that she is "sad". No, this details are here for a reason IMO.

As for Jaime's dream, Julia H. has already pointed out the appareance of Rhaegar that Jaime first believe is Eddard Stark which can be the answer of Jon's call for his father to help him. In Jaime's dream Rhaegar scowl Jaime for having not protected his children. The Kingsguard are also described as such : "They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders".

Plus, the scene is written with the same expression that the TOJ dream, "we all swore oaths", the "mist" used to describe the Kingsguard... Then, we have : "Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark" -> Jon's colors.

Is it a call from Rhaegar for Jaime to protect Jon ? This ties well with Jaime willingness to redempt himself and his decision to not take arms against the Starks and the Tully.

There is alson that thread on Jaime's dream : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/65116-jaimes-dream-brienne-uncat-and-everything-else/?p=3140400

[tf13]

I think Jaime may even be dreaming a connected dream. He dreams of crypts and then reflects that there's nowhere like that at the Rock.

Great point. This gives further credence to Jaime becoming the second Kingmaker.

[Kyoshi]

Thank you Julia H. I was searching for this thread and post as well. I think that Jon, Theon and Jaime's dream are much more connected than Daenerys's vision even if the three feast (HotU, Theon's dream and Bran's feast) must be connected as well.

The thing is I don't think that Jaime is in Casterly Rock. He say it himself that he has never seem a place like that there: "There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. “What place is this?” We know that he had this dream when he is sleeping on a weirwood's stump. The weirwoods are all connected as we know through Bran's POV and remembers.

Could Jaime also be somewhere beneath winterfell as well ?

- The water: There is pools in winterfell.

- An unknown place: it seems that there is lot of things beneath Winterfell, hidden ways, maybe tunnels, so why not a cave ?...

- As Julia H has pointed out, there is no lions, nor bears but direwolves.

- As Jon, Jaime has as well "no choice but to descend"

As weirwoods are connected, maybe the crypt are all connected in dreams and Jaime is stuck somewhere between Casterly Rock and Winterfell ?

Three parts of the same dream :

- Places : Jon, in the crypts, can hear the drums of the feast that took place in winterfell's Great Hall in Theon's dream. Jon also point out that a "light has gone out somewhere" which correspond with the light from Jaime's sword going out. I would say that Jon and Jaime are both beneath winterfell with Jaime being in a secret cave not too far from the crypt or connected to the crypt.

- Themes : The dead and family.

The revelation:

Many thinks that Jon while being coma next book will finish his dream and I agree. Some thinks that he will as well discover is parentage there. It is possible.

We know that Jon is condemned to go deeper in the crypt. He pass the Kings of Winter but he is not afraid of them, then comes the Lord of Winterfell, and Jon is still somewhat searching for his family, particulary for his father as the same time that he is claiming that he doesn't belong here because according him he is not a Stark. But he has to keep going deeper in the crypt anyway and what is the last tomb in the crypt ? Lyanna's. Jon's dream is clearly about his struggle with his identity, and the fact that he doesn't want to finish the dream, that he is terrified, is because he is unknowngly scared of finding the truth about his parentage.

Then, we have Theon's dream about the dead Starks as well with an emphasis on Lyanna : "The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna". How can Theon possibly dream of Lyanna with a crown of blue roses ? He can't know the importance of that crown. Nor he can't know the detail of her death "the white gown spattered with gore". And there also the fact that she is "sad". No, this details are here for a reason IMO.

As for Jaime's dream, Julia H. has already pointed out the appareance of Rhaegar that Jaime first believe is Eddard Stark which can be the answer of Jon's call for his father to help him. In Jaime's dream Rhaegar scowl Jaime for having not protected his children. The Kingsguard are also described as such : "They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders".

Plus, the scene is written with the same expression that the TOJ dream, "we all swore oaths", the "mist" used to describe the Kingsguard... Then, we have : "Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark" -> Jon's colors.

Is it a call from Rhaegar for Jaime to protect Jon ? This ties well with Jaime willingness to redempt himself and his decision to not take arms against the Starks and the Tully.

There is alson that thread on Jaime's dream : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/65116-jaimes-dream-brienne-uncat-and-everything-else/?p=3140400

That interpretation of Jaime's dream makes sense. For some reason I'd forgotten that the Starks' tradition of burying their dead in crypts is a unique thing.

I know I'm stretching it here but I always wondered why the show chose to have Jon and Jaime interact. It's bothered me since season 1.

Anyway, Jaime to me is like a parallel of Jon Con. It was that thing he said about having failed Rhaegar, he failed to protect the children. Jon Con says something similar: I may have failed the father but I will not fail the son. Jon Con is currently protecting Young Griff, Rhaegar's supposed son. The two relationships seem like mirror images to me. I just wonder if there is enough time for Jon and Jaime to develop a positive relationship.

[Ellfoy]

That interpretation of Jaime's dream makes sense. For some reason I'd forgotten that the Starks' tradition of burying their dead in crypts is a unique thing.

I know I'm stretching it here but I always wondered why the show chose to have Jon and Jaime interact. It's bothered me since season 1.

Anyway, Jaime to me is like a parallel of Jon Con. It was that thing he said about having failed Rhaegar, he failed to protect the children. Jon Con says something similar: I may have failed the father but I will not fail the son. Jon Con is currently protecting Young Griff, Rhaegar's supposed son. The two relationships seem like mirror images to me. I just wonder if there is enough time for Jon and Jaime to develop a positive relationship.

I always felt like this interaction is important on the show. Jaime is taunting Jon because he is going to join the Night's Watch, could this be a joke because Jaime may end up in the Night's Watch, some thinks that he is going to be the 1000th Lord Commander.

But more on topic, I do agree that there could be a parallel with JonCon and Jaime. There are theories about Jaime's future which resolves about helping Jon Snow and Jaime playing a great part in a possible end with Jon on the throne: the Kingmaker theory. The thread is there http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/97603-the-kingslayer-slays-the-kingslayer-to-become-the-kingmaker/?p=5003566 if you are interested.

Edit : Just saw tf13's post, wich also refered to the Kingmaker theory. Of course, Jaime's dream is also about a lot of others things. It just seemed irrelevant to the tie with Jon's dream.

[OberynBlackfyre]

For Jon it is simple. He is never able to complete that dream because he always wakes up from terror. I think he will be in a coma after the stabbing so he will not be able to wake up. That means he will complete the dream. In the crypts, I think he will meet Lyanna and talk with Ned about his parentage.

There is another dream of Jon which is often missed.

At that time, Winterfell was being sacked. I think this dream refers to that event and it means that the old Stark ghosts are awakening from their rest.

About Theon's dream;

I think he has a redemption arc to pay for his sins and after he completes that, his soul will be allowed to enter the Great Hall of the dead Starks. He will reject his Greyjoy heritage and fully embrace Ned as his true father.

I think Jon definitely has some prophetic dreams, yet he refuses to acknowledge them or even try to find any "deeper" meaning for them. Which is quite funny, because Jon is definitely a person that never quite asked for anything special, yet he has power and responsibility thrust on him left and right......which I think the theme for GRRM and heroes in this book is : "the best leaders are not those who seek power, but have power thrust upon them."

[Kyoshi]

[sNIP]

Thanks for the link. I've seen a similar theory I think, can't remember the title though. If I remember correctly there was a chapter in Feast where Jaime speaks of the kingmaker. I don't remember with whom. All I remember is that the story didn't seem to fit into the context/chapter/whatever. To me it seemed random. It would have made more sense if it had been Aemon telling someone or Ser Barristan telling Dany, but instead it was Jaime. I could be remembering incorrectly, in which case the point I am trying to make is moot.

My point: That chapter to me seemed to suggest that Jaime would be instrumental in crowning a controversial character as king in the end. It would be ironic, the kingslayer becomes the kingmaker. This is where I see another parallel between Jon Con and Jaime.

I think Jon definitely has some prophetic dreams, yet he refuses to acknowledge them or even try to find any "deeper" meaning for them. Which is quite funny, because Jon is definitely a person that never quite asked for anything special, yet he has power and responsibility thrust on him left and right......which I think the theme for GRRM and heroes in this book is : "the best leaders are not those who seek power, but have power thrust upon them."

It makes sense since more often than not people who want power tend to want it for selfish reasons.

EDIT: I just thought of this, in the show when Jaime sees Jon he says "a sword for the Night's Watch?" This is where this theory comes in: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/103266-r-l-lightbringer-updated-with-part-ii/

[Modesty Lannister]

There are a lot of parallels between Jon and Jaime. Both have the same original dreams and aspirations of knightly values and glory. Both are serving for life in a military organisation that requires celibacy. Both, breach that particular vow. Both may be Targaryen bastards.

[Kyoshi]

There are a lot of parallels between Jon and Jaime. Both have the same original dreams and aspirations of knightly values and glory. Both are serving for life in a military organisation that requires celibacy. Both, breach that particular vow. Both may be Targaryen bastards.

And both lose the woman they love in a way. Though I still maintain Jaime never truly loved Cersei, he seems to have convinced himself that he did. And they have their reverence for Tyrion in common I think. Daddy issues as well.

EDIT: Dead mothers.

[Modesty Lannister]

And both lose the woman they love in a way. Though I still maintain Jaime never truly loved Cersei, he seems to have convinced himself that he did. And they have their reverence for Tyrion in common I think. Daddy issues as well.

EDIT: Dead mothers.

I think they both have reverence for learned men or people better than themselves, which is a part of their common notion of chivalry. Hence, admiration for Tyrion's no nonsense approach. Or, in Jon's case, for maester Aemon; in Jaime's for Brienne. Both are not interested in power per se, but won't shy from it when given power. Both are commanders of their respective military organisations. Both are exceptionally talented swordsmen. Both, as you said, lost their mothers and have complex father issues. Both probably think wrong people are their father. Both are too quick to punish insubordination. Both can be good negotiators if pushed into it. Both feel a sense of unease and not-quite-belonging to their respective homes.