The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Khal Drogo Figurine
Drogo Figurine
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

Robb's Will- Does it matter?


157 replies to this topic

#1 The Bittersteel

The Bittersteel

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 988 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 08:39 AM

Many people seem to consider this as a real game changer, with Robb naming Jon as his heir being very significant but I'm not sure if I see why.

 

Firstly, although the idea of the kingdom of the North is still clearly alive and well in the minds of some (Manderlys, Mormonts etc) many of it's strongest supporters are dead or imprisoned. There doesn't seem to be anything left to 're-create' the kingdom as it were, with manpower and support massively reduced during the war. If anything the Riverlands territories are in an even worse state.

 

Secondly, the will was made with the assumption that Bran and Rickon were dead. If Rickon shows up is Jon still the heir?

 

Thirdly, Jon has already refused an offer of legitimisation and the North from Stannis, will the will really change his mind?

 

I guess I just don't see this being that important in the grand scheme of things, what does it change?



#2 Patrick Northcraft

Patrick Northcraft

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 12 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 08:45 AM

I heard one theory that I at first dismissed entirely, but after rereading where that occurs in the books it doesn't seem so bad. The idea is that since at the end of ADwD Lord Snow's fate isn't clear, should the worst happen it may not be the end. The Red Woman seems to think of him as important, and if he passed she could possibly revive him by using the blood of a king... In this case, either Mance (assuming he lives) or Shireen. If this happens, Jon could claim that he did in fact serve on the Wall to his dying breath, and could then take up Robb's cause, as he clearly wanted to do multiple times. Given that the will had the seals of all Robb's major lords, and assuming it wasn't destroyed, it could be used as a rallying cry for the northern lords to support Stannis, or perhaps to pick up where they left off before. Its not the most likely outcome by far, but it isn't impossible!

#3 chrisdaw

chrisdaw

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,154 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 08:48 AM

A lot of what you're saying is based on how things stand now, we're about what, two thirds? Three fifths through the series?



#4 The Bittersteel

The Bittersteel

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 988 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 09:14 AM

A lot of what you're saying is based on how things stand now, we're about what, two thirds? Three fifths through the series?

I don't understand the point of this post. Obviously things are subject to change but everything anyone posts on here is made with the knowledge of only what has been released. Should I wait until all the books are released in ten years before I ask the question?



#5 CJ McLannister

CJ McLannister

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 383 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 09:16 AM

I don't think it is critically important on its own.  I think there are going to be a number of things that, when combined, lead to various factions recognizing Jon as their rightful king.  Other than that, It's just another plan that didn't quite get carried out.



#6 K-26dp

K-26dp

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 102 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 09:20 AM

I don't think it is critically important on its own.  I think there are going to be a number of things that, when combined, lead to various factions recognizing Jon as their rightful king.  Other than that, It's just another plan that didn't quite get carried out.

 

Yeah, I think it's "important" in that I think it's driving the actions of several Northern houses. It may or may not be important in what happens with Jon Snow himself. The Manderleys at least seem to be not placing all their eggs in the Jon Snow basket, with them sponsoring Davos's trip to Skagos.



#7 Friendly Thenn

Friendly Thenn

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 70 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 09:22 AM

Even if Bran/when Rickon resurfaces, nullifying Jon's claim to Winterfell (which he would never take from one of his true born brothers), in order for Jon to have a claim in the first place Robb must legitimise him as a Stark. So either:

 

i) Neither Rickon (eaten on Skagos) nor Bran (too far north of North) show up and Jon becomes the Stark in Winterfell and rallying point for the northern lords, 

 

ii) Either Rickon or Bran show up and become the Stark in Winterfell and rallying point for the northern lords.

 

Either way, for the will to be important at all, Jon Snow must become Jon Stark.

 

 

 

Firstly, although the idea of the kingdom of the North is still clearly alive and well in the minds of some (Manderlys, Mormonts etc) many of it's strongest supporters are dead or imprisoned. There doesn't seem to be anything left to 're-create' the kingdom as it were, with manpower and support massively reduced during the war. If anything the Riverlands territories are in an even worse state.

 

 

 

 

I'm not too convinced that the remainder of the North still wants sovereignty as much as they want to get back to being the North-under-Winterfell.

The sheer devotion most of them have to avenging the Starks tells me they just want to get them back in some fashion, rather than a KitN per say.

 

 

 

 

Secondly, the will was made with the assumption that Bran and Rickon were dead. If Rickon shows up is Jon still the heir?

 

 

I highly doubt even a fully legally legitimate Jon Stark would be allowed by the general Northern community, and much less actually want, to "usurp" the claim of either Bran or Rickon. If either of them are Lord I see Jon as castellan, or as Hand if they become KitN.

 

 

Thirdly, Jon has already refused an offer of legitimisation and the North from Stannis, will the will really change his mind?

 

 

Legitimisation from his "brother" and (if i may say) true king Robb would probably hold more sway with Jon than the same offer from the leader of an invading army (admittedly a helpful one), partially because there would be infinitely more closure attached and also because he wouldn't have to burn down the Godswood.

 

Admittedly, this is assuming that one of the three of them actually make it to a non-Bolten infested Winterfell, before the Others kill everyone, and Robb's will makes it out of the swamp. I will also make no apologies for being consumed by the GNC at this point, which probably coloured my opinions!!


Edited by Friendly Thenn, 20 June 2014 - 09:26 AM.


#8 sj4iy

sj4iy

    Watcher on the Wall

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,265 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:22 AM

Many people seem to consider this as a real game changer, with Robb naming Jon as his heir being very significant but I'm not sure if I see why.
 
Firstly, although the idea of the kingdom of the North is still clearly alive and well in the minds of some (Manderlys, Mormonts etc) many of it's strongest supporters are dead or imprisoned. There doesn't seem to be anything left to 're-create' the kingdom as it were, with manpower and support massively reduced during the war. If anything the Riverlands territories are in an even worse state.


No, the North is not as strong as it was. But it is still strong. If Jon were to use this information to his advantage, he would clearly use it to fight the Others, and not the Iron Throne.
 

Secondly, the will was made with the assumption that Bran and Rickon were dead. If Rickon shows up is Jon still the heir?


Yes. If Jon is legitimized, he comes before Rickon. Catelyn points out that it would take the birthright from Arya, but Robb is pragmatic about it. He believes that Jon is the only brother who remains to him, and he wants to make sure that it passes to his brother. Now, if Rickon showed up, would Jon deny him Winterfell? I seriously doubt it. He's always believed that is trueborn brothers and sisters inherit before him, and if one of them were to show up to claim Winterfell, I cannot see Jon refusing them, even if he had a higher claim than they did because of Robb's decree.
 

Thirdly, Jon has already refused an offer of legitimisation and the North from Stannis, will the will really change his mind?


Stannis added conditions on his offer that made it impossible for Jon to accept...cutting out the heart tree from Winterfell being the one that ultimately turned him against the offer. Robb would never have told Jon to do such a thing, and he also would not have told Jon who he could marry. Also, Jon may decide that such a decree to raise the men he needs to fight the Others, which would be his first and foremost priority.

Edited by sj4iy, 20 June 2014 - 10:23 AM.


#9 Nic.

Nic.

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 229 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:27 AM

If it wasn't GRMM would never have bothered to bring it up through Robb even the first place, much less when he has Robb actually qualify his actions so that the aftermath of Balon's death doesn't repeat itself here.  The fact that the majority of those present during the signing of the document stating they were witness to Robb's will are still alive demonstrates that it will have to be brought up again.



#10 kiasyd

kiasyd

    Ranger

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 868 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:30 AM

Robb didn't name Jon as his heir, what he did was to legitimise Jon as non-bastard, i.e. Stark. Due to their age, he would be the next in succession.

 

However, considering J=R+L, this could have other kinds of outcome...

 

On the other hand, this could be one giant red herring.  :dunno:



#11 Paper Waver

Paper Waver

    The Lord of the Woeful Countenance

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,088 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:35 AM

Since Jon will wake up as a Targaryen, I don't think he will ever accept the will. 



#12 Alex21

Alex21

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 146 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:52 AM

It is important, the Will would make him a Stark and also a King, and a lot of Northern Lords will follow him as their ruler. Jon may use that to fight the Others, and for the R + L = J theory I think it is true, but Jon was raised as a Northern man and he is loyal to Winterfell and The North. He has no ties to the south.



#13 Minstral

Minstral

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,427 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 11:04 AM

It would be important to those in the Riverlands (probably only the Blackfish and a few others) and a lot in the North if they wished to use the will's contents as a pretext to continue to defy a Lannister Iron throne, or others that wish to assert their rule on the North.



#14 lakin1013

lakin1013

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 251 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 11:07 AM

The Robb document is significant because it offers Jon another avenue to shed his bastard label and become a contender, for want of a better word.  GRRM built in a back-door, if you will, for Jon to achieve significant things and NOT have to be accept the name of Targaryen.  

 

A. Jon could discover his true parents (if R+L =J) yet have no need to reveal it to anyone because Robb made him a legitimate Stark.

B. Jon could discover his true parents (again R=L) and become a contender and a Targaryen.

C. Jon could stay Jon Snow, with knowledge of his real parents or the document of his brother.

D. Jon could stay Jon Snow, without knowledge of his real parents or the act of Robb.

 

GRRM was very smart in how he wrote potential development for Jon Snow. 


Edited by lakin1013, 20 June 2014 - 11:07 AM.


#15 KINGpanther

KINGpanther

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 567 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 11:09 AM

 
I'm not too convinced that the remainder of the North still wants sovereignty as much as they want to get back to being the North-under-Winterfell.
The sheer devotion most of them have to avenging the Starks tells me they just want to get them back in some fashion, rather than a KitN per say.


So if the North don't want sovereignty then who do they declare for? fAegon, Tommen, Dany?

Na, the North needs a King who can make peace with the Others = Jon.

#16 TheBlackFlame

TheBlackFlame

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 250 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 02:15 PM

No, the North is not as strong as it was. But it is still strong. If Jon were to use this information to his advantage, he would clearly use it to fight the Others, and not the Iron Throne.
 

Yes. If Jon is legitimized, he comes before Rickon. Catelyn points out that it would take the birthright from Arya, but Robb is pragmatic about it. He believes that Jon is the only brother who remains to him, and he wants to make sure that it passes to his brother. Now, if Rickon showed up, would Jon deny him Winterfell? I seriously doubt it. He's always believed that is trueborn brothers and sisters inherit before him, and if one of them were to show up to claim Winterfell, I cannot see Jon refusing them, even if he had a higher claim than they did because of Robb's decree.
 

Stannis added conditions on his offer that made it impossible for Jon to accept...cutting out the heart tree from Winterfell being the one that ultimately turned him against the offer. Robb would never have told Jon to do such a thing, and he also would not have told Jon who he could marry. Also, Jon may decide that such a decree to raise the men he needs to fight the Others, which would be his first and foremost priority.

 

I'm kind of a yes and no on this one. Yes if Robb did indeed legitimize Jon his claim would be stronger than any of the other Stark children without question. But on the other hand he did refuse Stannis's offer. That right there is where it sticks for me. Yes there are several ways Jon could become KotN but will he is the question? At every opportunity Jon has shown himself to be an honorable man who takes his duties very seriously. He was given an out that no one would have called him to account for and he passed. The stain of illegitimacy wiped away entirely and undisputed rulership of the North provided Stannis wins. That is literally everything Jon has wanted his whole life right there all he needed to do was reach out and take it. However he took the high road as honorable men who do their duty generally do. But something else to consider, the "King Jon" scenario is one of only 4 possible scenarios involving the North that isn't disproved or at least proved to be very unlikely in the text. So I think to rule out the KotN idea completely would be a little shaky without more information about the Great Northern conspiracy. Now that right there is a theory that frustrates me, there is clearly something going on but its one of those case where it looks like nothing and everything all at once. I think if someone could really get to the bottom of that one they would learn a things worth knowing.


Edited by TheBlackFlame, 20 June 2014 - 02:16 PM.


#17 The Santa of House Claus

The Santa of House Claus

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 720 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 02:34 PM

I think it is important because, clearly Jon is important. He could become the rallying point for the North. Son of Winterfell, Brother to the King in the North, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Rickon is still very young and likely to be of limited importance for the war that is coming. Jon on the other hand is likely going to be a MAJOR piece to it. Now the politics of it all likely won't flush themselves out right away, because there are bigger issues. 

 

Why the will matters:

 

1: Only if words successfully gets out to the other Lords, mainly the Reed, Manderly, Mormont, Glover, and Umber, then possibly Karstark.

2: Jon is old enough to rule in his own right if he gets out of the Night's Watch by:

    A: The Wall falling

    B: Jon's "death" is seen as fulfilling his vows. (which might just be a nice way for Bowen Marsh to get rid of him)

    C: The Night's Watch is wiped out after the attempt on Jon's life. Yes there are other Brothers at the other castles, but word would spread and chaos would    follow. At the end, it seemed pretty clear that the Wildlings had found their new leader, Jon.

 

This is a very wide open question because there are so many possibilities for the North right now, so many open plot lines. I believe Jon will survive his assassination attempt and that he will be the rallying point for the North, just not as King in the North, unless Stannis dies first. Jon accepting that title with Stannis sill alive and with an army would just create more chaos.



#18 Tagganaro

Tagganaro

    I know SUN TZU hrurrr jizz everywhre.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,070 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 02:39 PM

Many people seem to consider this as a real game changer, with Robb naming Jon as his heir being very significant but I'm not sure if I see why.

 

Firstly, although the idea of the kingdom of the North is still clearly alive and well in the minds of some (Manderlys, Mormonts etc) many of it's strongest supporters are dead or imprisoned. There doesn't seem to be anything left to 're-create' the kingdom as it were, with manpower and support massively reduced during the war. If anything the Riverlands territories are in an even worse state.

 

Secondly, the will was made with the assumption that Bran and Rickon were dead. If Rickon shows up is Jon still the heir?

 

Thirdly, Jon has already refused an offer of legitimisation and the North from Stannis, will the will really change his mind?

 

I guess I just don't see this being that important in the grand scheme of things, what does it change?

While I'm not really sure the will is important, in response to your third point, one of the reasons Jon explicitly states for rejecting Stannis's offer is that Winterfell is not Stannis's to give to him.  That changes a lot if Robb is giving him Winterfell, as it is Robb's to give.  

 

I think the will could be important in terms of solidifying support behind Jon.  Robb and the Starks are still well-loved, and if the will were to become publicized Jon would certainly prove to be a rallying point for the Stark loyalists.  Also, as a Great Northern Conspiracy fan, I have to wonder about the Northern Clan lords who ostensibly show up at the Wall to be there for the Karstark/Thenn wedding.  Seems like there might be more to it, maybe they know about the will and are checking Jon out?



#19 sj4iy

sj4iy

    Watcher on the Wall

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,265 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 02:42 PM

I'm kind of a yes and no on this one. Yes if Robb did indeed legitimize Jon his claim would be stronger than any of the other Stark children without question. But on the other hand he did refuse Stannis's offer. That right there is where it sticks for me. Yes there are several ways Jon could become KotN but will he is the question? At every opportunity Jon has shown himself to be an honorable man who takes his duties very seriously. He was given an out that no one would have called him to account for and he passed. The stain of illegitimacy wiped away entirely and undisputed rulership of the North provided Stannis wins. That is literally everything Jon has wanted his whole life right there all he needed to do was reach out and take it. However he took the high road as honorable men who do their duty generally do. But something else to consider, the "King Jon" scenario is one of only 4 possible scenarios involving the North that isn't disproved or at least proved to be very unlikely in the text. So I think to rule out the KotN idea completely would be a little shaky without more information about the Great Northern conspiracy. Now that right there is a theory that frustrates me, there is clearly something going on but its one of those case where it looks like nothing and everything all at once. I think if someone could really get to the bottom of that one they would learn a things worth knowing.


We don't know what his circumstances would be if he receives this decree. He may no longer be subject to his Oath if he dies and comes back, or the NW may not even exist if Marsh's rebellion sparked the Wildlings to destroy them. Someone, like the High Septon, could release him from his vows, like the HS offered to do for Aemon Targayran. He might just break his oath, if he felt it necessary...or he may not, but use the information to recruit the North to come fight for him against the Others.

There are many possibilities, but I don't see Jon staying idle when the threat of the WW is out there and growing larger and larger everyday. I've said before that I think we will see a radical shift in Jon's story, since there's really nothing left for him to do as LC of the Night's Watch...he needs to be able to go into Westeros to build an army to fight the White Walkers. He can't do it at Castle Black, because the rest of Westeros has continued to ignore his pleas. Somehow, he has to gain the ability to leave his post and become the leader he was meant to become. He's done everything he could do as LC of the Night's Watch, but if he continues to stay as LC of the Night's Watch, he won't be able to protect the realm.

Edited by sj4iy, 20 June 2014 - 02:48 PM.


#20 CJ McLannister

CJ McLannister

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 383 posts

Posted 20 June 2014 - 02:46 PM

Someone, like the High Septon, could release him from his vows, like the HS offered to do for Aemon Targayran. He might just break his oath, if he felt it necessary...or he may not, but use the information to recruit the North to come fight for him against the Others.

He took his oath before the Old Gods.  The High Septon can't release him of those.  In theory, the an avatar of the Old Gods (Bloodraven?, Bran?, A CotF?) could.