Robb's Will- Does it matter?

[Hippocras]

They all affixed their seals to Robb's will as witnesses.

IIRC hardly any of them were present, so I am not sure about this.

[Mithras]

I don't necessarily think that the will has to lead to Jon taking up the mantle as heir to his brother but I think that it must have some significance to the overall plot or else its very existence in the books loses all purpose.

I think the purpose of the will was to give something to the Stark loyalists to hold on. Only a few knew that Bran and Rickon were alive. After the appaarent downfall of the Starks, the Stark loyalists pursued their cause and plotted to install Jon to Winterfell. However, Jon himself will learn that he is a Targaryen. The Lords should also learn that Jon is a Targaryen (from Howland Reed). They will also learn that Rickon is alive. As a result, Robb’s will will be pointless. Not everything in the story should be equally important. Robb made a plan to take Moat Cailin but that became nonsense when he was killed in the Red Wedding. The need to take Moat Cailin vanished when Balon was assassinated and the ironborn left for home.

[Alex21]

And their last boy-king worked out so fantastically for them.

Rickon would actually be the best person to crown as KITN at the current moment, precisely because he's so young. He can literally be betrothed to anyone (without fear of him breaking said marriage pact), his chances of randomly dying on the battlefield are next to zero, his war councils would actually have seasoned and experienced war leaders making decisions instead of an impulsive teenager, and nobody can question his legitimacy to rule Winterfell as a trueborn son of Eddard Stark.

Why do you suppose Rickon would have good counselors?

Think what would have happened if Robb had followed the advices of his bannermen. And we are talking too much about Robb being an impulsive teenager, when there is a lot of evidences showing that he probably was bewitched somehow.

Yes, maybe Jon is not Eddard's son but (probably 85%) Lyanna's son and he has Stark blood therefore he is able to rule The North at least Rickon reaches adulthood.

[James Arryn]

Why do you suppose Rickon would have good counselors?

Think what would have happened if Robb had followed the advices of his bannermen. And we are talking too much about Robb being an impulsive teenager, when there is a lot of evidences showing that he probably was bewitched somehow.

Yes, maybe Jon is not Eddard's son but (probably 85%) Lyanna's son and he has Stark blood therefore he is able to rule The North at least Rickon reaches adulthood.

Wait.

Robb was bewitched?

[LordQorgyle]

Rickon would have the Lords like Greatjon and Wyman governating for him...

[Alex21]

Wait.

Robb was bewitched?

Look back in Sybell Spicer's tree family and you will find this "Maggy", the same woman that Kevan mentioned, a woman able to do love potions and see the future. The same woman who told Cersei about her future.

[Hippocras]

Look back in Sybell Spicer's tree family and you will find this "Maggy", the same woman that Kevan mentioned, a woman able to do love potions and see the future. The same woman who told Cersei about her future.

I agree. It seems quite likely that a love potion was used on Robb to get him to forget his betrothal and fall for Jeyne.

[LordQorgyle]

I agree. It seems quite likely that a love potion was used on Robb to get him to forget his betrothal and fall for Jeyne.

It is an option but i highly doubt it i think that Robb like a normal teen fall in love for a pretty girl a forgot his responsabilities to his kingdom

[Hippocras]

It is an option but i highly doubt it i think that Robb like a normal teen fall in love for a pretty girl a forgot his responsabilities to his kingdom

out of character.

[Ser Leftwich]

Many people seem to consider this as a real game changer, with Robb naming Jon as his heir being very significant but I'm not sure if I see why.

Firstly, although the idea of the kingdom of the North is still clearly alive and well in the minds of some (Manderlys, Mormonts etc) many of it's strongest supporters are dead or imprisoned. There doesn't seem to be anything left to 're-create' the kingdom as it were, with manpower and support massively reduced during the war. If anything the Riverlands territories are in an even worse state.

Secondly, the will was made with the assumption that Bran and Rickon were dead. If Rickon shows up is Jon still the heir?

Thirdly, Jon has already refused an offer of legitimisation and the North from Stannis, will the will really change his mind?

I guess I just don't see this being that important in the grand scheme of things, what does it change?

The first point could easily go either way. Enemies of the Bolton's may just go along with any anti-Bolton plans.

Second point: The wording of the will does not really matter. Finer points of law are not that closely adhered to in Westeros, no lawyers. If Jon was legitimized, he was. Period. Can kings declare who they want as heirs, as far as we know in story, yes.

Third point: the difference between taking legitimacy from King Robb and King Stannis is very important. Two very different people, two very different offers. Being legitimized as the Lord of Winterfell and as the King in the North are very different things.

[WierWood Wolf]

And the Lords in the North will never support a bastard with Ned's Trueborn sons known to be alive

But none of the bannermen knew Rickon and Bran were alive...There isn't any Lord that would support Jon with Rickon and Bran known to be alive..Because that's the only motive for Robb to legitimize him Rickon and Bran beying supposebly dead

The motive for Rob legitimizing Jon was to keep Tyrion Lannister the husband of Sansa Stark from claiming the North for the Lannisters. His dying wish would go a long way in,convincing the Northern Lords to accepting Jon.

Now having said this, I think Jon will be a catalyst in solving the dilemma of what threatens the realms of men. So I think his being made the heir of Winterfell and or a Targaryen Prince will be meaningless.

[WierWood Wolf]

Rickon would have the Lords like Greatjon and Wyman governating for him...

Governating? Only one Governator Arnold and I don't mean Karstark!

[Wmarshal]

I believe so, a specially with Manderly knowing of Rickon.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Many people seem to consider this as a real game changer, with Robb naming Jon as his heir being very significant but I'm not sure if I see why.

Firstly, although the idea of the kingdom of the North is still clearly alive and well in the minds of some (Manderlys, Mormonts etc) many of it's strongest supporters are dead or imprisoned. There doesn't seem to be anything left to 're-create' the kingdom as it were, with manpower and support massively reduced during the war. If anything the Riverlands territories are in an even worse state.

Secondly, the will was made with the assumption that Bran and Rickon were dead. If Rickon shows up is Jon still the heir?

Thirdly, Jon has already refused an offer of legitimisation and the North from Stannis, will the will really change his mind?

I guess I just don't see this being that important in the grand scheme of things, what does it change?

Basically it acts as a plot device in Jons character development, eg the crypts used to tell him he didn't belong in his dreams and he remembers Robb telling him he can't be Lord of Winterfell, well now this will officially says that he can and he was effectively turned into Jon Stark

This will be important because even if the NW no longer respect him, many of Tormunds Wildlings do, this means that he can quite possibly bring Giants and Mammoths, other skinchangers like the Boar fellow and combine them with a northern army, particularly the Manderly's fleet + heavy cavalry and hillmen and the North then has a highly potent army highly suited to winter warfare.

Any such army quite capable of not only re-taking the North but also the winter afflicted Riverlands - it's almost the perfect combination because the wildlings would be expert winter foragers (unlike Stannis's men for example who are relying on the Hill Men) and raiders, the Elephants can smash any Southron cavalry and whereas Wildling Calvary is weak and more suited to raiding duties (Wedge formation broke versus Stannis) the Manderly Cavalry is presumably proper Cavlary

In that instance (if they attempt to re-take the Riverlands) it would be interesting to see what happens with Stoneheart. I doubt that will happen though because their attention would be on shoring up the Wall against the Others

Basically the fact Bran and Rickon still live means they (and I think Sansa if her marriage is annulled and Arya too) are before Jon. Basically if Jon were to try and push a claim we end up with a northern version of the Blackfyre rebellion

The point of it all is he has got official acceptance by the Starks which means he will no longer be treated like an outcast bastard but more crucially he will be completely acceptable to take on the duties of Lord-Regent until Bran/Rickon come of age (same as what Ser Kevan Lannister was doing with respect to Tommen)

What really boggles the mind though is that similar to Cersei, Lady Stoneheart could actually take on the role of Queen-Regent until Bran/Rickon comes of age if they managed to resurrect the Kingdom...

All what ifs though

[Ghosts Lunch]

He took his oath before the Old Gods. The High Septon can't release him of those. In theory, the an avatar of the Old Gods (Bloodraven?, Bran?, A CotF?) could.

Yeah but conceivably the Old Gods - which basically half means Bran now lol can release him from those vows...probably by either shaking the branches or having a Raven squawk loudly on a branch lol

Though it won't come to that because his killing has just released him anyway

[Ghosts Lunch]

Robb's will has meaning for jon an his northern subjects and whoever in the river lands supports the King in the North.its a game changer IMHO.lol I,m more interested in where Lady Mormont Glover and the other men Robb sent into the neck to find Reed an his followers are at .i hope they are on there way to Jon .i think they are all waiting in the wolfswood near winterfell just waiting to crush the Boltons and Freys .but back to ur ? Yes the will has big meaning it says that Jon us indeed Jon stark King of the North

That's part of the issue, presumably the people in the neck know Bran and Rickon are alive, eg Howland Reed will be aware because his children are with bran and I think he has a relationship with the CoTF so he will be able to clarify this with the Will holders. Not to mention he is aware of events at the Tower of Joy which possibly moves Jon onto even bigger things...

Then there's the fact the will is based on the assumption Arya is dead, as far as Jon is concerned Arya was force married to Ramsay Snow, so Jon would never be of a mind to disinherit Arya so personally I don't buy this idea that GRRM is setting up some Scottish themed conflict, I think the Scottish example is articulated already through the Blackfyre rebellion and the competing dynasties rearing their heads in terms of Dany and Aegon. Otherwise we just have copycat plot lines in the north and the South and this is a waste of narrative when the Northern plot will have to start focusing on the Others

That said I do think there is the possiblility that Sansa will become involved in the Riverlands though through mobilising the Vale military to push the Freys/Lannisters back from Riverrun to Casterly Rock.

We may even end up seeing a situation with a northern Kingdom administered by Jon/Rickon faction and a Vale/Riverlands Kingdom administered by Petyr/Sansa faction and it may be effectively split in two (I don't think Edmure is leaving Casterly Rock until the very end)

At least Littlefinger may push for that if Jon/Rickon turn up and he will have to change his mooted plan of having the Vale Lords vow to assert Sansa's claim on Winterfell and divert it to Riverrun insteand. Plus Littlefinger will want to combine his ancestral home (3 generations...) with his childhood foster home (even though he is Lord Paramount of the Trident) and of course Robin is half Tully, this could end up being rather similar to how some Dornish are trying to push for a clash between Myrcella and Tommen for example

in this instance cue Lady Stoneheart, this may be where a redemption arc between her and Jon comes to fruition

Either way it looks like the Freys would get sandwiched between the two and they might be in big trouble

Frankly though I simply don't think there is enough bookspace left to cover such any in-depth conflict and it will be resolved in a rather straightforward manner,

[RainGhost]

If Jon learns of the will before he learns of Rickon's survival (I believe Bran will stay where he is) then I think he would accept. He wanted WF but didn't want to burn the weirwoods as Stannis wanted, also WF wasn't Stannis's to give away. He will be touched that Robb legitmised him and made him heir and will want to carry out his wishes. But Manderly knows of Rickon's survival, so he would just tell Jon and Jon would never usurp Rickon.

Basically, the will just gives him the name he wants and the acceptance as part of the Stark family and the right to be buried in the crypts at WF. Also, someone needs to act as regent until Rickon comes of age - Jon would have that right as a Stark. Or even if Sansa becomes regent, Lord Commander Stark would find it easier to get the support of the northern lords than Lord Commander Snow - they all respected Robb and he put his faith in Jon, which makes him trustworthy.

I also think this will set Jon apart from the Blackfyres and Ramsay Snow and prove to everyone just what sort of a man he really is - he can disprove the prejudice about bastards. He didn't accept being legitimised (by Stannis), he was legitmised without his knowledge and then he still doesn't try to claim WF, proving that he truly is a man of honour and a Stark.

[Ghosts Lunch]

If Jon learns of the will before he learns of Rickon's survival (I believe Bran will stay where he is) then I think he would accept. He wanted WF but didn't want to burn the weirwoods as Stannis wanted, also WF wasn't Stannis's to give away. He will be touched that Robb legitmised him and made him heir and will want to carry out his wishes. But Manderly knows of Rickon's survival, so he would just tell Jon and Jon would never usurp Rickon.

I think if he find out about the Will before he finds out fArya is Jeyne Poole he wouldn't accept title of KiN but would accept being Regent on Arya's behalf as I can't see him willingly usurping any of his siblings. Crucially he is legitimised and is Jon Stark and the northern Lords would accept him as Regent wheras they may be coy about accepting Jon Snow

lol, what does my head in though is what happens if he finds out fArya is Jeyne Poole, then hears about the Will, and then hears about Rickon after that. And then it is Stannis with Rickon instead of Manderly and he has the Northern Lords in one ear and Stannis in the other and the the IT promoting the Boltons in a third ear

Whatever happens, the Will does matter and WoW should make for some interesting reading

[Alayne's Shadow.]

out of character.

Robb had just lost two brothers and had his seat taken. I'm sure he was able to act a bit out of character. No potion needed.

On-topic: I don't think so. Robb's will was made on false assumptions - And Jon himself has already refused to rule over Winterfell. He may be granted the opportunity again, but I highly doubt his character will regress and he'll suddenly take Rickon's or Sansa's rightful throne.

[belladeuil]

Jon Snow has sworn the vows of the Night's Watch which are not taken lightly in the North. Even if he is released from his vows somehow, the Northmen will not think highly of him for not living up to his vow. Also, he is a bastard and in a land where primogeniture governs who inherits what, Jon Snow will have a difficult time fending off claims from the other four surviving Starks who are of an unchallenged legitimate line.