R+L=J v.85

[Ygrain]

This is something that has bothered me about r+l=j, and though I've seen it talked about briefly, nothing has really changed my mind about it. I totally get Ned was keeping Jon's parentage from everyone, but really, why keep that from Cat? Like I understand not telling her immediately, they had only been married for a short time and didn't know each other that well. But after a few years, when he felt he could really trust her, why not? Its not like she'd go from treating Jon like the scum of the earth, to coddling him and loving him. I've been told it's because 'shes not great at secret keeping' but I think that's a lame excuse. Anyone could keep a secret like that, if it meant life or death. Idk, it's just.. I like Ned. But I think keeping something like that from her, for like 15 years, letting her never forgive him for it, I think its pointless. I just can't like him for doing that.

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust.

This from Ned himself. The secret is not dangerous solely to Jon but to those privy, as well, because harbouring him is treason. Telliing Cat would make her complicit and greatly worried about her family. And, as Ned muses, were she to choose between her own children and Jon, the outcome would be uncertain. That is not meant as bashing Cat, as he questions even himself what he would do if it was his child's life against another child.

All in all, the secret is a burden that he does not wish on anyone else.

[UnmaskedLurker]

This is something that has bothered me about r+l=j, and though I've seen it talked about briefly, nothing has really changed my mind about it. I totally get Ned was keeping Jon's parentage from everyone, but really, why keep that from Cat? Like I understand not telling her immediately, they had only been married for a short time and didn't know each other that well. But after a few years, when he felt he could really trust her, why not? Its not like she'd go from treating Jon like the scum of the earth, to coddling him and loving him. I've been told it's because 'shes not great at secret keeping' but I think that's a lame excuse. Anyone could keep a secret like that, if it meant life or death. Idk, it's just.. I like Ned. But I think keeping something like that from her, for like 15 years, letting her never forgive him for it, I think its pointless. I just can't like him for doing that.

While Ygrain gives a persuasive and, I think accurate, response to your question, I think you actually answered it yourself to some extent with the bolded language. Ned was keeping the secret because it was life or death. If he tells Cat, it is not really a secret. The other people who know, Ned cannot help that they know (Howland and likely Wylla). But he does not interact with them. Having another person with whom he interacts know about the secret is way too dangerous, e.g., Cat and Ned might be overheard talking about it. The secret is a matter of life or death--the fewer people who know the better, no matter how trustworthy.

Also, as a practical matter, when and how does he actually bring it up? Given that you admit that he could not reveal it immediately after they are married because they do not know each that well, how do you later broach the subject? What do you say? "Oh, by the way, I have been lying to you for many years, Jon is not really my son." Do you really think that makes things better between them at that point? When exactly does he decide Cat has finally passed the "test" to be let in on the secret?

[The other prince]

Also, as a practical matter, when and how does he actually bring it up? Given that you admit that he could not reveal it immediately after they are married because they do not know each that well, how do you later broach the subject? What do you say? "Oh, by the way, I have been lying to you for many years, Jon is not really my son." Do you really think that makes things better between them at that point? When exactly does he decide Cat has finally passed the "test" to be let in on the secret?

Cat was upset over the thought that Jon is Ned's, yes. It is something she can mentally get past though and still love him. After all at the point this would have happened they barely knew each other. Being lied to for years though? I don't know how she would take that.

Besides, are you 100% positive that she could have been trusted with this? Ned wonders what she would do if it came down to choice between Jon and one of her children. It's a justified question too, Cat is a mother and mother's protect their children first and foremost. Are you sure that had she had this information she wouldn't have tried to leverage it help Robb? Or to try and help free Sansa? I'm not.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sansa goes by Stark because she is Robb's heir and the plan is for Tyrion to take control of the North in her son's name, which will be Stark.

A better example would be Catelyn Stark (nee Tully) who goes around saying things like this:

So Cersei is calling herself Lannister because.....?

And Margaery is still called Tyrell because....?

Catelyn is a Stark. Ned says:

And Catelyn's uncle says:

“Until this morning, no living man had ever seen a direwolf either,” Catelyn reminded him.

“I ought to know better than to argue with a Tully,” he said with a rueful smile.

Perhaps more importantly than Ned or Brynden, Catelyn herself thinks:

Catelyn remembered the way she had been before, and she was ashamed. She had let them all down, her children, her husband, her House. It would not happen again. She would show these northerners how strong a Tully of Riverrun could be.

LF says:

Can you think of a less likely place to find a Catelyn Tully?

Conclusion of the story: Marriage doesn't suddenly make you part of a different family while completely forgetting your old family. Catelyn is a Stark by marriage, she's a Tully by birth. Lyanna was a Stark by birth, and quite possibly was a Targaryen by marriage. But Ned can't go on and tell Robert that, now can he? Above all else, being a Stark by birth for 15 years might weigh extremely much more than having been married to a Targaryen for 1 year.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Cat was upset over the thought that Jon is Ned's, yes. It is something she can mentally get past though and still love him. After all at the point this would have happened they barely knew each other. Being lied to for years though? I don't know how she would take that.

Besides, are you 100% positive that she could have been trusted with this? Ned wonders what she would do if it came down to choice between Jon and one of her children. It's a justified question too, Cat is a mother and mother's protect their children first and foremost. Are you sure that had she had this information she wouldn't have tried to leverage it help Robb? Or to try and help free Sansa? I'm not.

You are quoting me, but when you say "you" are you talking to me or the OP because I think we agree 100%.

[The other prince]

You are quoting me, but when you say "you" are you talking to me or the OP because I think we agree 100%.

We are 100%. That wasn't very clear though.

[Aeron_Damphair]

This is something that has bothered me about r+l=j, and though I've seen it talked about briefly, nothing has really changed my mind about it. I totally get Ned was keeping Jon's parentage from everyone, but really, why keep that from Cat? Like I understand not telling her immediately, they had only been married for a short time and didn't know each other that well. But after a few years, when he felt he could really trust her, why not? Its not like she'd go from treating Jon like the scum of the earth, to coddling him and loving him. I've been told it's because 'shes not great at secret keeping' but I think that's a lame excuse. Anyone could keep a secret like that, if it meant life or death. Idk, it's just.. I like Ned. But I think keeping something like that from her, for like 15 years, letting her never forgive him for it, I think its pointless. I just can't like him for doing that.

Catelyn is completely untrustworthy and an absolute disaster as a diplomat.

The secret is WAY too big for ANYONE but Ned to keep, and keep ALONE.

The secret is almost certainly one of the "promises" Ned made to Lyanna.

There's a scene where Ned is thinking about Catelyn and what would happen to Jon if she thought that his presence might bring danger to her own children (pretty plausible given the magnitude of the secret)

You ask why he didn't tell Catelyn, but you don't ask why he didn't tell Jon, why he wouldn't even talk about Jon's mother to Robert, etc.

In short, it is almost ridiculous to think that he would tell Catelyn, and that he didn't tell Catelyn does not constitute the least problem with R+L=J. The fact that it was SUCH a big secret that he didn't even tell Catelyn actually supports R+L=J.

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

This is something that has bothered me about r+l=j, and though I've seen it talked about briefly, nothing has really changed my mind about it. I totally get Ned was keeping Jon's parentage from everyone, but really, why keep that from Cat? Like I understand not telling her immediately, they had only been married for a short time and didn't know each other that well. But after a few years, when he felt he could really trust her, why not? Its not like she'd go from treating Jon like the scum of the earth, to coddling him and loving him. I've been told it's because 'shes not great at secret keeping' but I think that's a lame excuse. Anyone could keep a secret like that, if it meant life or death. Idk, it's just.. I like Ned. But I think keeping something like that from her, for like 15 years, letting her never forgive him for it, I think its pointless. I just can't like him for doing that.

Catelyn treats Jon as she perceives him. He is a constant reminder that Ned was unfaithful, therefore she is very cold to him. If Ned told her the truth about Jon's parentage then she might treat him differently depending on who is around. This could lead to her being nice to Jon and someone walking in. Or a servant could tell someone that "Lady Stark treats the Lord's bastard differently when people visit. Isn't that odd?" Ideally for a deception to work no one knows or at least the fewer people the better. And all the posters who have replied to your statement I agree with what they say. I try not to be very repetitive.

[Ser Leftwich]

Just thought of a possible parallel between Duncan the Small and Rhaegar.

Apparently, Duncan the Small gave up his crown to wed Jenny of Oldstones. Was he removed from the line of succession at that time? Was this up to the discretion of Aegon V?

Perhaps Rhaegar was going to take himself out of the line of succession or ask Aerys to take him out. Aerys was not exactly old, so he could raise baby Aegon to take the throne directly.

Once he does hear the news about Rickard, Brandon, and company, he knows he has to go and make the "changes" he mentions to Jaime.

Even if Rhaegar was completely obsessed with prophecy (which theory I don't adhere to) he might have thought of his roll as just making the three heads, he would not have to actually be king or do anything else.

Thoughts?

This all hinges on how things actually went down with Duncan the Small.

[Ygritte]

Catelyn treats Jon as she perceives him. He is a constant reminder that Ned was unfaithful, therefore she is very cold to him. If Ned told her the truth about Jon's parentage then she might treat him differently depending on who is around. This could lead to her being nice to Jon and someone walking in. Or a servant could tell someone that "Lady Stark treats the Lord's bastard differently when people visit. Isn't that odd?" Ideally for a deception to work no one knows or at least the fewer people the better. And all the posters who have replied to your statement I agree with what they say. I try not to be very repetitive.

Or she confides in Lysa, who she thinks is her sweet sister from their girlhood, but in fact Lysa is off the rails and would tell everything to Littlefinger just because she adores him. Or she tries to trade him for Sansa when Robb doesn't want to give up Jaime; he's the only bargaining chip they have that might be worth even more.

[Alia of the knife]

Just thought of a possible parallel between Duncan the Small and Rhaegar.

Apparently, Duncan the Small gave up his crown to wed Jenny of Oldstones. Was he removed from the line of succession at that time? Was this up to the discretion of Aegon V?

Perhaps Rhaegar was going to take himself out of the line of succession or ask Aerys to take him out. Aerys was not exactly old, so he could raise baby Aegon to take the throne directly.

Once he does hear the news about Rickard, Brandon, and company, he knows he has to go and make the "changes" he mentions to Jaime.

Even if Rhaegar was completely obsessed with prophecy (which theory I don't adhere to) he might have thought of his roll as just making the three heads, he would not have to actually be king or do anything else.

Thoughts?

This all hinges on how things actually went down with Duncan the Small.

That is an interesting thought, and not necessarily out of bounds, (again, GRRM's telling a story within a story).

I also agree that while prophesy might have been a factor, I don't know if it was obsession since no one speaks of Rhaegar acting obsessivley. My other question is why Rhaegar himself was never groomed to be, or put in the position of being his fathers Hand as it seems that was a role that some of the Crown Princes assumed?

I mean, what roles and responsibilities did he have at court that groomed him for the IT?

And I tend to gravitate towards the theory that Lady Olenna was actually the one dumped, and not the other way around, wondering if it was Prince Duncan. If her family was one of the Houses slighted, they may have been part of the treachery that was Summehall . If Rhaegar was of a mind to put Elia aside, perhaps Aerys wasn't wrong, and Prince Lewyn did betray Rhaegar?

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

Or she confides in Lysa, who she thinks is her sweet sister from their girlhood, but in fact Lysa is off the rails and would tell everything to Littlefinger just because she adores him. Or she tries to trade him for Sansa when Robb doesn't want to give up Jaime; he's the only bargaining chip they have that might be worth even more.

Oh God, Lysa. I rarely say this, but I am kinda glad she is dead. (The only other people in the series I would say this about is Joffery and Tywin.) She was crazy, in power and totally in love with Littlefinger a very bad combination. Even more reason not to tell Catelyn.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Catelyn is completely untrustworthy and an absolute disaster as a diplomat.

The secret is WAY too big for ANYONE but Ned to keep, and keep ALONE.

The secret is almost certainly one of the "promises" Ned made to Lyanna.

There's a scene where Ned is thinking about Catelyn and what would happen to Jon if she thought that his presence might bring danger to her own children (pretty plausible given the magnitude of the secret)

You ask why he didn't tell Catelyn, but you don't ask why he didn't tell Jon, why he wouldn't even talk about Jon's mother to Robert, etc.

In short, it is almost ridiculous to think that he would tell Catelyn, and that he didn't tell Catelyn does not constitute the least problem with R+L=J. The fact that it was SUCH a big secret that he didn't even tell Catelyn actually supports R+L=J.

:agree: I'm not a Cat hater at all, but one of the wisest decisions Ned ever made was not telling her. Yes, Cat totally would have used that info for leverage when her children were in danger. The last thing young Jon needed during TWot5K was some assassin in the night, knifing him at the wall. He had enough to deal with. Thank God for Ned's honor!

Just thought of a possible parallel between Duncan the Small and Rhaegar.

Apparently, Duncan the Small gave up his crown to wed Jenny of Oldstones. Was he removed from the line of succession at that time? Was this up to the discretion of Aegon V?

Perhaps Rhaegar was going to take himself out of the line of succession or ask Aerys to take him out. Aerys was not exactly old, so he could raise baby Aegon to take the throne directly.

Once he does hear the news about Rickard, Brandon, and company, he knows he has to go and make the "changes" he mentions to Jaime.

Even if Rhaegar was completely obsessed with prophecy (which theory I don't adhere to) he might have thought of his roll as just making the three heads, he would not have to actually be king or do anything else.

Thoughts?

This all hinges on how things actually went down with Duncan the Small.

Creative ideas here, and it could be true about Duncan -- I even think you may be on to something re: Olenna. But I don't think Rhaegar would have abdicated. His father was tearing the kingdom apart, Viserys was a boy and Aegon was only a baby. I think Rhaegar was too responsible to just run off with Lyanna and live in the Free Cities or something like that, even if he were totally in love with her.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I've just been rereading book one, and not only do I think you're right that GRRM is using those colors as an allusion, I think Loras himself is doing it on purpose (i.e. it's both an authorial choice and the character's choice, if that makes any sense). Loras is trying to make Robert think of Lyanna. In my reread I ran across something I'd completely forgotten over the years: the Tyrells are trying to place Margaery under Robert's nose so he'll divorce Cersei for her. And they think she looks like Lyanna, but only because they don't really know what Lyanna looks like; when Renly shows her miniature to Eddard, it doesn't ring a bell at all. But they think there's a resemblance, and they want to rekindle those memories and then bring Margaery to court to draw the king's eye.

Interesting idea. I wouldn't completely put it past the Tyrells. Tiny blue forget-me-nots. :)

Neither would I, but I think that such subtlety was totally wasted on Robert :D

There is something else besides that.... I just noticed in a re-read.

Loras gave Sansa a rose.

Sansa was betrothed to a Baratheon.

Sansa is a Stark.

I think they were trying to recreate something, or they did, inadvertently, even if for Loras that rose meant nothing at all. There is a reason why that's a Sansa chapter and Ned isn't there. Otherwise, that could have triggered some memories.

[BearQueen87]

Catelyn is completely untrustworthy and an absolute disaster as a diplomat.

The secret is WAY too big for ANYONE but Ned to keep, and keep ALONE.

The secret is almost certainly one of the "promises" Ned made to Lyanna.

There's a scene where Ned is thinking about Catelyn and what would happen to Jon if she thought that his presence might bring danger to her own children (pretty plausible given the magnitude of the secret)

You ask why he didn't tell Catelyn, but you don't ask why he didn't tell Jon, why he wouldn't even talk about Jon's mother to Robert, etc.

In short, it is almost ridiculous to think that he would tell Catelyn, and that he didn't tell Catelyn does not constitute the least problem with R+L=J. The fact that it was SUCH a big secret that he didn't even tell Catelyn actually supports R+L=J.

I agree. I like Cat as a person/character but at every opportunity to play the game of thrones and know what to tell, what not to tell, she fails. She would have gladly offered up that information if she felt her own children were in danger.

[J. Stargaryen]

There is something else besides that.... I just noticed in a re-read.

Loras gave Sansa a rose.

Sansa was betrothed to a Baratheon.

Sansa is a Stark.

I think they were trying to recreate something, or they did, inadvertently, even if for Loras that rose meant nothing at all. There is a reason why that's a Sansa chapter and Ned isn't there. Otherwise, that could have triggered some memories.

Did you read my recent post on the TotH? - Link

Nice add about Sansa being betrothed to a Baratheon, btw.

[teej6]

I know this is a bit off topic but I had mentioned this theory in another thread and Ygrain had asked me to discuss it on this thread. I believe that Jon is the legitimate child of Rhaegar and Lyanna and that the two were married. Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar when she eloped with him. The theory (I'm sure it's been mentioned before) I suggested is that the elopement between Lyanna and Rhaegar was deliberately made to look like a kidnapping and hence the subsequent stories (like Dany's swordpoint one) about Lyanna being kidnapped.

There is a similar story in the Hindu epic the Mahabharata (which btw is awesome) that describes the elopement of a princess that was made to look like a kidnapping. Subhadra, a princess from the Yadav dynasty was betrothed to Duruyodhan, a prince from the Kuru dynasty. However, Subhadra was in love with Arjuna (the hero of the epic), a cousin to Duruyodhan and also a prince of the Kuru dynasty. Duruyodhan and his brother were called the Kauravas and Arjuna and his brothers were the Pandavas. The Kauravas and Pandavas were foes and the story of the Mahabharata ends with a cataclysmic battle with these two warring branches of the Kuru dynasty. Anyway getting back to the Subhadra story, the princess was promised to Duruyodhan by her older brother and subsequently her father. However, as mentioned earlier, she was in love with Arjuna who happened to be in the Yadav kingdom at the time. Krishna (an avatar of the second person of the Hindu trinity) who was best friends with Arjuna was also Subhadra's older brother. Right before the marriage, Krishna asks Arjuna to save his sister from a loveless marriage (and the fact that if Duryodhan became the son-in-law of the Yadavs they would have to support his cause if war broke out between him and his cousins) by kidnapping her right before her wedding. However, Krishna asks Arjuna to have Subhadra be the abductor foreseeing the repercussions the kidnapping will have. Arjuna reluctantly agrees to this arrangement and so the next day when Subhadra attends morning prayers at the temple, Arjuna shows up as planned and takes Subhadra in front of her attendants and guards. When Duruyodhan and his retinue arrive for the marriage ceremony, the soon to be bride is missing but as she was kidnapped they cannot blame the Yadavs for reneging on the marriage contract and therefore cannot go to war with them and is forced to leave. This way Krishna prevents this conflict and saves his sister. However, as the Yadavs are insulted by Arjuna they prepare to go to battle with him but Krishna intervenes and claims that Subhadra was the charioteer and therefore she was the abductor and Arjuna the abductee. Thus Krishna convinces his family to accept Arjuna and all is well.

I narrated this story because I feel there are parallels between this and the Rhaegar/Lyanna story. Lyanna may have been concerned about the effect her elopement and disregard of the marriage contract with Robert would have on the honor of her father, brothers, and the Stark family name. The kidnapping story would have prevented the Stark honor from being tainted and good old Robert/Baratheons would not have felt insulted (at least not that much) and be forced to declare war on the Starks. Lyanna and Rhaegar probably believed that once the fervor had died they could reveal that the marriage was consensual. But they miscalculated Brandon's reaction and underestimated Arys madness. Another unknown here is what Benjen knew and when. He may have known about the affair and initially stayed silent on Lyanna's insistence and later because things got out of hand and he was too afraid to speak about it. I know it seems like Ashara may have been the one who told Ned about Lyanna's whereabouts but what if it was Benjen.

Another thing that I find interesting is as to how Rhaegar knew that blue winter roses was Lyanna’s favorite flower unless they had several interactions prior to the crowning at the tourney, Just seeing her once and knowing she is the KotLT (if that’s the case) does not still explain how he knew about the flowers. It had to be more than one interaction. I don’t think Rhaegar was going around asking people what Lyanna’s favorite flower was. IMO I think the Lyanna/Rhaegar love story began when she heard him sing and I’d like to think she pursued him :wideeyed: The tragedy that was Lyanna/Rhaegar’s love story seems far better to me than the abduction of a maiden by a prince obsessed with prophecy.

[J. Stargaryen]

Another thing that I find interesting is as to how Rhaegar knew that blue winter roses was Lyanna’s favorite flower unless they had several interactions prior to the crowning at the tourney, Just seeing her once and knowing she is the KotLT (if that’s the case) does not still explain how he knew about the flowers. It had to be more than one interaction. I don’t think Rhaegar was going around asking people what Lyanna’s favorite flower was. IMO I think the Lyanna/Rhaegar love story began when she heard him sing and I’d like to think she pursued him :wideeyed: The tragedy that was Lyanna/Rhaegar’s love story seems far better to me than the abduction of a maiden by a prince obsessed with prophecy.

It was recently suggested that the blue winter roses were the only kind of flower readily available during the false spring.

[BearQueen87]

It was recently suggested that the blue winter roses were the only kind of flower readily available during the false spring.

Yeah I think so. And I don't know that Rhaegar knew they were Lyanna's favorite, they were just *there.* The crown originally belonged to the lady of Harrenhal. The story Mereea tells Bran (the Knight of the Laughing Tree), 5 knights swore to defend it for her. By the end, the young dragon crowns the she-wolf with it, but that's another story..and a sadder one, so says Meera.

[teej6]

It was recently suggested that the blue winter roses were the only kind of flower readily available during the false spring.

Oh well then that explains it.