Anyone else hoping that R+L=/= J?

[The Bedding]

No.

[Mikkel]

I'll wait until the facts are published, and I'll wait until the very last sentence of the very last book, because GRRM told me to.

What are you doing here then? I don't mean to be rude, I'm legitimately wondering what interest you have to be on a discussion board if discussions are out of order until the last page of the last book is read.

[stateofdissipation]

What are you doing here then? I don't mean to be rude, I'm legitimately wondering what interest you have to be on a discussion board if discussions are out of order until the last page of the last book is read.

apparently to cover what was written... and not to try to fanfiction...

[keira_targaryen]

I feel some people simply don't want jrl to be true because they don't like it...

[JasonJD]

I haven't heard any subscriber to the R+L = J theory describe it as canon. Those are your words not mine. It's still a theory and in my mind the most plausible outcome considering the facts we know. To state that I won't believe something unless and until it's penned down by the author while debating the merits of a theory is what is strange.

I've seen many people on these forums say they consider it fact or canon.

What Weasel said was that he would "wait until the facts were published" I don't see how that and debating theories are mutually exclusive or strange. There are lots of theories that I believe have merit, I'll conjecture and speculate all day on them, but I'm not gonna hold them true until they are in the book.

[stateofdissipation]

I feel some people simply don't want jrl to be true because they don't like it...

Not accepting the inventions of fans... is not the same thing as not liking r plus l...

r plus l is just another possibility.

The constant overstating... misrepresentation... and outright fabrication in R plus L is pretty overwhelming...

start with the FAQ section of R plus L... the questions are laughable... and there is not a single source used to back the answers... just one link that does not support the given answer.I think there is a new non related link to GRRMs most recent interview.

[Mikkel]

apparently to cover what was written... and not to try to fanfiction...

Fair enough, but if you want to go even the tiniest step beyond just summarizing the text, you invariably go into analyzing and extrapolating what's written. IMO RLJ falls into that category, and of course it needs to fill in the blanks, just like any analysis does.

If all we wanted to do was sit around saying "then Tywin said this" and the next person would post "then Cersei answered this" verbatim from the books, it'd not only be frightfully boring (and borderline copyright infringement) it'd also be entirely pointless. So naturally we need to go into why Tywin says what he does, and what it means beyond the words as written. (I deliberately picked something that's not related to RLJ).

[teej6]

I've seen many people on these forums say they consider it fact or canon.

What Weasel said was that he would "wait until the facts were published" I don't see how that and debating theories are mutually exclusive or strange. There are lots of theories that I believe have merit, I'll conjecture and speculate all day on them, but I'm not gonna hold them true until they are in the book.

I don't know who these people are that you allude to that state R+L=J is canon. Most of the defenders of this theory state it is the most plausible outcome given the facts we know so far. None of these posters (who btw have thoroughly analyzed all the clues and hints laid out in the text), to my knowledge, has claimed R+L=J is canon, almost canon perhaps.

And stating I won't agree with this theory until the author has written it sort of defeats the purpose of debating theories. They are referred to theories precisely because we the readers do not have all the facts. And if you can't see the difference I'm afraid there's nothing else for me to add to this discussion. I can appreciate posters who do analyze the text and provide alternative scenarios that maybe possible but yours and WP posts on this thread don't seem to be doing that.

[stateofdissipation]

Fair enough, but if you want to go even the tiniest step beyond just summarizing the text, you invariably go into analyzing and extrapolating what's written. IMO RLJ falls into that category, and of course it needs to fill in the blanks, just like any analysis does.

If all we wanted to do was sit around saying "then Tywin said this" and the next person would post "then Cersei answered this" verbatim from the books, it'd not only be frightfully boring (and borderline copyright infringement) it'd also be entirely pointless. So naturally we need to go into why Tywin says what he does, and what it means beyond the words as written. (I deliberately picked something that's not related to RLJ).

you invariably go into analyzing and extrapolating what's written.

andI have no problem with that

IMO RLJ falls into that category,

RLJ forgets what is canon ans uses extrapolation and canon interchangeably... it does not seem to mind when its second and third order and beyond extrapolations are countered by canon.

and of course it needs to fill in the blanks, just like any analysis does.

fill in blanks is one thing..i. building bridges and castles in the sky is quite another..

If all we wanted to do was sit around saying "then Tywin said this" and the next person would post "then Cersei answered this" verbatim from the books, it'd not only be frightfully boring (and borderline copyright infringement) it'd also be entirely pointless.

If one cant keep track of what is in the books and what he or she made up and uses one for the other... sticking with verbatim is the only option. If one is trying to "prove a point" one needs verbatim. If you cant use verbatim to prove the point the point should not be "proven."

So naturally we need to go into why Tywin says what he does, and what it means beyond the words as written.

If you keep track of what Tywin does.. and don't mix it with your why you can get beyond what is written. If you can't why bother with focusing on tywin. Open a word document and make your own fiction.

(I deliberately picked something that's not related to RLJ).

That is a good thing... I actually have most of the core text and misrepresentation and fabrication running around as analysis.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I don't know who these people are that you allude to that state R+L=J is canon. Most of the defenders of this theory state it is the most plausible outcome given the facts we know so far. None of these posters (who btw have thoroughly analyzed all the clues and hints laid out in the text), to my knowledge, has claimed R+L=J is canon, almost canon perhaps.

And stating I won't agree with this theory until the author has written it sort of defeats the purpose of debating theories. They are referred to theories precisely because we the readers do not have all the facts. And if you can't see the difference I'm afraid there's nothing else for me to add to this discussion. I can appreciate posters who do analyze the text and provide alternative scenarios that maybe possible but yours and WP posts on this thread don't seem to be doing that.

Given the fact we know so far, the most plausible outcome is Jon is Ned's bastard. Everyone in Westeros believes it, Ned claims it and it fits the timeline perfectly.

Now, none of us believe it because we assume there must be a twist and people are acting funny. And so I subscribe to B+A=J/R+L=D.

But, really, based on the evidence, Jon is Ned's bastard is the strongest.

[stateofdissipation]

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

1) The Story

a1) The Story

Rhaegar Targaryen married Elia Martell, and fathered two children off her, Rhaenys and Aegon.--Aegon died as an infant in 283AC was conceived after Harrenhal 281AC-- Yet the marriage was political, and at the Harrenhal tourney in the year of the false spring, Rhaegar met his true love--Lyanna Stark. --and then went on to father Aegon with Elia

Together, the pair fell in love, and ran off together some time after, to the Tower of Joy in the Red Mountains of Dorne.

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.--GRRM

There, Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna. However, Rhaegar had to go leave to fight Robert, and three of the Kingsguard were sent ---Hightower was sent to get Rhaegar. Whent and Dayne were already there Rhaegar left all 3 there and did not send them anywhere--

to the Tower of Joy to protect Lyanna and her unborn child.

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Somehow, Eddard and his battle companions discovered Lyanna's location. They assumed that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar, and did not join him by her own free will.

---He also never corrects the idea that this is what happened.---

Eddard and the northmen reach the Tower of Joy, and battle ensues with the Kingsguard. At the end, only Eddard and the crannogman Howland Reed are left alive.

Eddard enters the tower to find Lyanna.

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. .---aGoT page 410

Aside from the fact that never happens.

She has given birth to the baby

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 40

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, silver lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Mirri Maz Duur replied.--aGoT page 650

We have bed of blood as childbirth... In and after are not the same animal

but, due to complications of childbirth, she is dying.

"I was with her when she died." Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and father." He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried in that room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been as faint as a whisper, but when he had given his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They found him still holding her body. Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his, Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was... fond of flowers."--aGoT page 40 paperback.

The author of the essay has now fabricated a time of death in relation to the showdown

She makes Eddard promise not to reveal the child's true parentage to anyone, lest Robert's hatred of Targaryens lead him to kill the child.

We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.--Tywin --aSoS chapter 53

Now lets see what Ned thought about it."The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me, A crown... it was the girl I prayed them for, Your sister safe...and mine again as she was meant to be. I ask you Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike." --Robert aGoT 111

"I thought you were a better man than this Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king,"--Ned aGoT page 343.

Now the author has fabricated a threat that is countered by Ned, Robert, and Tywin... and specified an unspecified promise.

Then she dies.

Eddard names the child Jon. He, Jon and possibly Howland all ride to Starfall, to return the greatsword Dawn which used to belong to Arthur Dayne until he was killed in the fighting.

250 miles...they also pull down the tower and bury the combatants...

There, perhaps Eddard and Wylla conspire to pretend Wylla is Jon's mother, to protect Jon. Also, Ashara kills herself (for the possible reasons, see above).

Nobody at Starfall or along the 250 mile route notice or report 2 men and a baby...

Eddard then rides north with Jon, claiming the son is his and Wylla's to protect Jon from Robert's Targaryen hatred.

Robert's hatred was an invention the first time and it still is

[stateofdissipation]

This is by far the most balanced presentation of the theory. it is simply a collection of plausible interpretations linked from the RLJ..

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/

Moreover, one can infer from previous remarks from GRRM that Ashara Dayne was not a companion of Elia’s in the last year of her marriage, at minimum (SSM), which would coincide with the war

From the SSM we get:.

All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats.

This would be more supportive of the Ned Ashara pairing than the article presented.

Ned remembers and the former, at least, seems sharply at odds of Eddard’s continuing admiration of Aerys’s Kingsguard.

Ned calls Dayne, Whent, and Hightower "no ordinary three."--aGoT page 409 that is the extent of his admiration of Aerys's kingsguard.

Finally, there are other small hints which are certainly open to interpretation but which all share plausible interpretations pointing to Jon’s parents being Rhaegar and Lyanna, such as the juxtaposition of Lyanna’s pleading with Sansa’s in relation to the way Robert Baratheon responded to the deaths of the Targaryen children (I: 67), the presence of the Kingsguard which suggests they could have been protecting a possible heir to the throne (I: 354-355), Ned not listing Jon Snow among his children when thinking of what he would do to defend them (I: 406), and the fact that the Targaryens practiced bigamy which strengthens the possibility that a child by Rhaegar and Lyanna would be a legitimate heir to the throne (SSM). No other combination of persons really has the density of circumstantial evidence pointing towards it.

Ned not listing Jon Snow among his children when thinking of what he would do to defend them.

Jon is on the list... but not his child with Catelyn.--aGoT page 469

the presence of the Kingsguard which suggests they could have been protecting a possible heir to the throne

Has been asked and answered.

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

juxtaposition of Lyanna’s pleading with Sansa’s in relation to the way Robert Baratheon responded to the deaths of the Targaryen children

It does however include a Targaryen hating Robert 13 years too early.

We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.--Tywin --aSoS chapter 53

Now lets see what Ned thought about it."The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me, A crown... it was the girl I prayed them for, Your sister safe...and mine again as she was meant to be. I ask you Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike." --Robert aGoT 111

"I thought you were a better man than this Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king,"--Ned aGoT page 343.

and the fact that the Targaryens practiced bigamy which strengthens the possibility that a child by Rhaegar and Lyanna would be a legitimate heir to the throne uses the following link for support

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1035

Instead of the more direct and ambiguos...

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2997/

While alone no single piece can provide a certain answer, the weight of them does make it seem very plausible.

A quick fact check put the just gave RLJ a pretty good diet.

[stateofdissipation]

Eddard and his companions find three of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy: Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, Ser Oswell Whent, and Ser Arthur Dayne. The reasons for their presence and the ensuing fight are unknown,,

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow/Theories

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

wiki is actually balanced if not up to date.

[MtnLion]

Given the fact we know so far, the most plausible outcome is Jon is Ned's bastard. Everyone in Westeros believes it, Ned claims it and it fits the timeline perfectly.

Now, none of us believe it because we assume there must be a twist and people are acting funny. And so I subscribe to B+A=J/R+L=D.

But, really, based on the evidence, Jon is Ned's bastard is the strongest.

Nope, Jon is a bit younger than Robb. If he isn't then Catelyn didn't need to be jealous, because it happened before Ned married her. Also, Ned point blank says that he wouldn't father a bastard in his first chapter (lay at Ned Stark's door.)

[sj4iy]

Given the fact we know so far, the most plausible outcome is Jon is Ned's bastard. Everyone in Westeros believes it, Ned claims it and it fits the timeline perfectly.

Now, none of us believe it because we assume there must be a twist and people are acting funny. And so I subscribe to B+A=J/R+L=D.

But, really, based on the evidence, Jon is Ned's bastard is the strongest.

LOL, no. Based on the evidence, Jon is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna. There's no evidence supporting Ned's claim that he fathered Jon. There's only a confession, and while you may want to believe his confession, all of the evidence goes against it.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Nope, Jon is a bit younger than Robb. If he isn't then Catelyn didn't need to be jealous, because it happened before Ned married her. Also, Ned point blank says that he wouldn't father a bastard in his first chapter (lay at Ned Stark's door.)

Ned says Jon is a bit younger than Robb, but (gasp) Ned could have actually lied. Jon may be older - B+A=J

Bastards are not mentioned in Eddard's first chapter.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

There's no evidence supporting Ned's claim that he fathered Jon.

Except that Ned claims it.

And he thinks about Jon being a bastard.

And everyone else thinks it.

And Edric Dayne claims it.

And the fact the R+L=J and B+A=J/R+L=D (which I actually believe) fit insanely poorly into the timeline of events.

[Debra Morgan]

Except that Ned claims it.

And he thinks about Jon being a bastard.

And everyone else thinks it.

And Edric Dayne claims it.

And the fact the R+L=J and B+A=J/R+L=D (which I actually believe) fit insanely poorly into the timeline of events.

Ashara is the possible candidate, but what about the D&D guess and Dany's vision about blue flower. I think it points at Lyanna.

[Mikkel]

Except that Ned claims it.

And he thinks about Jon being a bastard.

And everyone else thinks it.

And Edric Dayne claims it.

And the fact the R+L=J and B+A=J/R+L=D (which I actually believe) fit insanely poorly into the timeline of events.

Jon probably is a bastard, just not Ned's bastard. He's certainly lived the life of a bastard, no matter what he turns out to be. Just like he's much more Ned's son than he'll ever be Rhaegar's (if RLJ). All the rest is explained nicely by Ned's ever-present promise, and the resulting lie.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Ashara is the possible candidate, but what about the D&D guess and Dany's vision about blue flower. I think it points at Lyanna.

I can't really speak to D&D's guesses and the relationship between the show and the books. I don't really know anything about it.

On roses. There are four blue roses in our story:

1) A crown for Lyanna

2) Loras at the Hand's Tourney

3) A vision of a rose in a Wall by Dany

4) Bael's replacement rose for his stolen bride.

So, I'm not quite seeing the connection. I mean, I can vaguely see what people are trying to do. Blue rose = Lyanna = Jon = Wall. But it's kind of a stretch. Is the Wall Jon? Aren't there other people at the Wall? How did a crown become a single rose? Say Lyana is the rose, is a mom equivalent to a son?