Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 6! (DwD--Pink Letter!)

[bemused]

'Bumps!...Wait, wait, wait... Excuse me, I'll have to cut and paste a lot , here ( it's the most efficient for me)

You say :

If this is Stannis' way of warning Jon and leaving it open to fake his death, then regardless of the chance for interception by Roose, the logical thing is for Stannis to simply write the letter as himself, say that he believes he's outnumbered and won't survive, and to put his faith in Mel to know the outcome and guide his actions. Even if Roose might intercept this letter, conveying this does not compromise Stannis' faking his own death ruse. In other words, the minimal risk of interception (it's the middle of a snowstorm, so how are the Boltons going to be shooting down ravens?) does not really answer why the letter would be written so obtusely. It's very counterproductive from the Stannis angle.

I don't agree . For one thing, I think there would be a problem with timing. Let me explain : I think Stannis would use both ravens available to him.. one for Roose, announcing victory and Stannis' death (paving the way for the arrival of "victorious" forces at his gate) and one for Jon as a warning, etc.. "Arya's" party would have been sent off as soon as possible, to keep them away from the battle and give them a head start on any pursuers...But both ravens would have to be held until Stannis knew the battle was immanent, because

both those ravens are Winterfell ravens. Stannis

hopes one can go to Jon, but if he warns Jon of "Arya's" party and the raven flies to Roose, Roose would send men to cut her / Tycho off... and they'd have a pretty good chance. ...Arya/Tycho's party has to angle toward CB from a position 3 days to the WNW of Winterfell , while Roose's men could travel straight north. So both ravens need to be released at the same time, delaying long enough so that Roose will believe that the battle could have taken place by the time the "victory" raven arrives. I'm sure he's expecting at least one further report from Tybald.

I don't think Stannis is too worried about archers in the snowstorm, but he knows the raven carrying the map made it to Roose ,( and we know the raven to Jon makes it through the storm, whoever sent it.) The danger for Stannis ( apart from failing to warn Jon) is if the raven to Roose and the raven to Jon both arrive at WF , one proclaiming Stannis' death and the other to Jon from a living Stannis , that could undermine or seriously hinder Stannis' plan to gain entrance to the castle.

You say:

Why ask Jon for hostages the Watch would be tempted to actually turn over when faced with the apparent choice between turning them over and total destruction?

I've said it so often, but... I don't think Stannis asked for those hostages .. only "my bride and my Reek". ...However, Bowen in particular, afraid of political reprisals, would like them all gone from the Wall.

You say:

I'm not sure that having Thorne intercept the letter and adding to it/ rewriting it makes the letter any more explicable. I mean, on a purely practical level, the letter would have to be rewritten (you can't exactly add in all this text to an existing letter). If Thorne's involved in rewriting the letter from a more incendiary tone, why would he keep in the Reek parts (and why would Stannis be calling Theon "Reek" in the first version of the letter?)

Yes, I'm saying the letter was rewritten. I think they / Thorne would keep anything they didn't understand , such as "Reek" .. because Jon might understand, and it might be something that puts pressure on him.

Theon would be clamouring for Reek to be included ;)..but more importantly, once Stannis decides to masquerade as Ramsay, what would Ramsay call Theon? ..it's just another detail to convince Roose . It wouldn't tell Jon who it was, but it would tell him there was someone else in the party that Ramsay really wanted badly. Jon doesn't need advance warning that it's Theon to take appropriate action.

You Say:

And the motive you give for Thorne's doing this is basically to have Jon taken out of the game, right? You say that Thorne would have added more hostages in order to make this harder for Jon. That's exactly why Rams as the author makes so much sense. Rams, unlike Thorne, wouldn't care if the Watch destroyed itself by infighting. Thorne might want Jon taken out, but he wouldn't want anarchy up there-- like, he wouldn't want the Watch to fall.

Yes, to the first. Thorne is primarily bent on Jon's destruction, in my estimation. And I think the added hostages would really satisfy Bowen , but Thorne wouldn't object . He'd see anything that might provoke Jon into doing something rash as a good thing... I don't really agree that Thorne wouldn't want anarchy, or want the watch to fall. ... It's not his underlying motive, but he's never cared that he caused disention in the ranks ,or that he only gave rudimentary training to the recruits. He's seemed more and more careless of the welfare of the Watch since KL ... backing Slynt, not for any discernible political reasons on his part, but to get Jon executed. He says he's wasted a third of his life at the Wall. I don't think he cares much about the Watch anymore (if he ever did).

And you say:

Plus, if Thorne wanted to tell the other Watchmen about Jon's Mance mission and accuse Jon of saving Mance, then he should just tell them (provided he actually knows of these things), not write a fake letter from Rams' POV. Or if he must write a letter from Rams' POV, then address it to the Watch rather than Jon.

I don't think the conspirators had a clue about Mance's mission, but they know Mance was Stannis' captive and Stannis insisted on dealing with him himself. They saw Mance burn .. but then, Stannis has his red witch... So, if the letter arrived blaming Stannis for all of it, they might believe it , but many NW men might continue to believe their own eyes over some story from Ramsay... And remember, a fair number of them heard Jon respond to the first Ramsay letter with, “I have no sister. Only brothers. Only you.”

But it would be pure Thorne to say.. Yeah, and Jon was in on it too. ..."Your false king lied and so did you."... Remember how Thorne tried to implicate Jon and Benjen in the murder of Mormont. He knew that wasn't true, but was using it to inflame Slynt..

He wouldn't be hiding out thinking , Why don't I write a fake letter.. but when one arrives that might provoke Jon , he'd tweak it to make sure it did the job... and use it to inflame opinion against Jon after the assassination ( to make the conspirators' actions seem more rational) .

I think a letter coming from the Boltons to "the Watch" would probably go to Jon anyway. In the absence of Aemon , possibly all mail should be , we don't know. In any case , generally, Jon wouldn't trust Clydas' wisdom to make decisions, or give official replies, and I doubt Clydas would feel confident enough to do it.

And if their object is to provoke Jon into doing something rash ( going to WF), the letter needs to go to Jon. They don't want to try Jon, they want to kill him. Until the letter showed up, they had a different plan. The letter just gave them an easier and more immediate way to do it.

The Boltons

With the Bolton scenario, your projection of what their thinking could be is very clear and plausible... But my question is, are they there, yet ? I'm not convinced...I'm just not sure they would have progressed so far as to be focusing on the details of Jon's position at the wall ( the ratio between Watch-Queen's men-Wildlings, and who is allied to Jon).. A lot depends on them having good information , which I agree they could have through Mance and the spearwives and/or if they have actually defeated Stannis and questioned some of his men... but those things are far from certain.

Holly and Frenya both may have been killed outright, but my money is on Squirrel being able to "pull a Wex" , as planned. ..I am among those who think Myrtle can probably turn into a man (Liddle), and therefore, could possibly melt into the 2-3 K still in WF.... Why is Willow suddenly, for the first time, called Willow Witch-eye in the ADWD Theon chapter (spell-casting? hypnotic abilities? ).. who knows? ...Then there's "dangerous" Rowan "with her knife" and Mance. Where is Mance's ruby? If he put it on, would he appear to be Rattleshirt-sans-bones ( and also possibly melt away ) ? ... And would any of them, like Theon , rather die than be captured ? Do they all have knives ?... Would any of the Northerners help or hide any of them ?

We're in agreement that the Boltons would always have seen Jon as a threat , but probably not an immediate threat. KL wouldn't legitimise him and release him from the Watch. Stannis could , but he hasn't yet , and besides, they think they have Stannis on the ropes.

They may have had some intimation ( if not express information ) that KL has a plan in the works for Jon. This wouldn't mean they could just forget about him, but Roose is always for letting someone else do the heavy lifting if he can, preserving his own strength. If KL solves his "Jon" problem by the time he's defeated Stannis , Ramsay gets "Arya" back and he can consolidate his power a bit , he'd take that breather.( Still keeping a watchful eye, I'm sure.)

Then, I hit my other objection. All the Bolton tactics we've seen, whether Roose or Ramsay have invovlved subterfuge and/or sneak attack. I think we're in agreement that the loss of "Arya" would prompt action. The question is what kind.

Why would they let Jon know they don't have her before they can try to recover her themslves?.. Unless they really think he has her - but in that case, surely it would already be too late. There are Northmen at the Wall (which, granted, they may not know) , but there are ravens at the Wall - could they trust that no-one would pass the news (fake Arya) on ? Does non-intervention stretch from not taking up arms, to having to keep schtum about something that is definitely news worthy ?

And even if I accepted Ramsay's authorship after all that, I don't think the letter sounds like Ramsay.. It sounds like what we can imagine after hearing his rant in Barrowton... But it doesn't sound like the one letter from him that we read verbatim in the text (Asha's). If this is a calculated Bolton scheme, I would expect the letter to sound more like Asha's. If it's Ramsay in a fit of rage, I wouldn't expect him to send a letter, but just turn up.

And if he sent it why would he say "send them to me" instead of announcing he's coming ( or sending men) to take them into custody? Lots could go wrong along the way, if they were sent ( death, another escape, etc.).

Anyway... we know there are pros and cons for every candidate .. These are the things George sends to try us..

I find Mel/ Mance intriguing ( that's a reasonable motive for her ), but I don't see how they can have planned it beforehand. Unless she had some other vision, about which we know nothing, she wasn't expecting Arya to go to WF. I don't know how they could have been in touch, and they had no assurance that Mance would ever have access to a raven.

[horizon]

I am not buying that Alistair had anything to do with the letter.

And on the Stannis argument I think this part from tWoW:

"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."

The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead — "

+ talkings of maesters & ravens & parchments

Those are the best arguments that Stannis wrote it. And he wrote it himself because he didn't thrust the maesters at that point. If there is one lord who would surpass maesters like that it is Stannis, just remember the prologue of Clash of Kings.

[bemused]

Horizon... Jon knows Stannis' handwriting, for sure. And Stannis had the maester at Deepwood Motte write the main body of his letter to Jon from there. Of course, we can bet he would read anything over before he signed it.

[Maia]

Bemused, why would there be a possibility of a raven intended for Jon flying to Winterfell?! IIIRC Stannis took ravens from Castle Black, guaranteed to return there when he left the Wall! And he could have certainly taken more CB-attuned birds from Deepwood Motte. There was zero reason for him to try to use any of Tybald's ravens for anything Jon-related, as none of them were supposed to have CB as their destination.

Hence, the reason you provide for subterfuge on Stannis's part just doesn't make sense, IMHO.

[Syri0_F0rel]

On Bran attempting to contact Jon through Mormont's Raven, I find it a bit strange that he'd do so indirectly when we saw in ACOK that he was perfectly happy to speak to Jon directly through a dream. :dunno:

If it is Bloodraven who is present in Jon's dream what is he trying to do? Is he trying to show Jon something or to wake him up?

The scene where Bran contacts Jon through a wolf dream and begins to open his third eye mystifies me. Bran had just learned that he could warg, yet while hiding in the crypts he appears in Jon's dream as a growing weirwood sapling, speaks to Jon and touches him letting Jon fully warg Ghost who overlooks Mance's encampment in the Frostfangs. Bran at this point has so little knowledge and control of his powers and only dreams the incident. It seems he entered Jon's dream subconsciously. What I found interesting is that in the Roy Dotrice reading he uses his 3 Eyed Crow voice for what I interpreted as Bran's voice while reading.

Was Roy Dotrice told to use the crow voice for that scene? Or did he just assume and random voice in a wolf dream should be the 3 Eyed Crow who appeared in Bran's dreams?

Then the voice (I still think its Bran) tells him, 'Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark." which is reminiscent to the Three Eyed Crow saying to Bran, "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

[bemused]

Maia... No, Stannis didn't take ravens from CB , that's why he couldn't send any report to Jon until he reached Deepwood Motte, where there were ravens and a maester. All he had was a couple of guides to get him as far as the clans.. And he obviously didn't take any ravens from Deepwood, either - otherwise he would have reported his situation before. and we don't know how many CB ravens DM still had available , having been occupied by the ironborn ,and therefore,cut out of the regular supply chain..E.G. it would be pointless for CB to send any requests for men, etc. to the Glovers, while they were occupied .

The two Winterfell ravens are the only ones available to Stannis .

[horizon]

Hmmm, so if Stannis had ravens for Winterfel. From tWoW we now Stannis exposed Karstark.

Add my previous comment (under spoilers).

Stannis also wanted to turn the ground into his favour. Now, hypothetical, Stannis defeated Freys. Catches up with Manderling forces. Stannis orders a letter to be sent to Winterfel signed as Karstark: Stannis defeated. The Manderling forces return with Stannis swords to Winterfel.

Ramsey writes the letter.

a) The spearwives being captured/death is a given due Theon's escape.

b.) Mance being captured but kept in a kage for everyone to see: possible. But why no skin or finger from Mance in the letter! Just like Theon's finger things had been added to previous letters. It would be an act from Ramsey.

c) Ramsey writes he won because of Karstark letter + Manderling return.

It makes sense apart of the bolded part, which is a point to investigate.

Also: Ramsey operates as Winterfel Lord and Roose has no say? Or Roose is more clever and does not want his name in the north like that?

[Maia]

Maia... No, Stannis didn't take ravens from CB , that's why he couldn't send any report to Jon until he reached Deepwood Motte, where there were ravens and a maester.

Well, I can't now check if he took ravens or not and, of course, it may not be specifically mentioned even if he did. However, you yourself pointed out previously on these Jon re-read threads that the clans receive ravens, which means that they raise their own, distribute them to other important contacts such as NW and most likely send them too. One doesn't need a maester to send or receive ravens, after all, as demonstrated by Sam, Clydas, as well as Jon giving rangers who were supposed to approach wildlings birds, etc. In fact, we have learned from Bloodraven that raven-post used to be operated by the skinchangers, back before the Citadel or the coming of the Andals, who spoke the messages through the birds. Raven post is a First Men thing that was taken over by the maesters, but it doesn't mean that a maester is really needed to make it work. Just as there are still healers in Westeros, who are not maesters, etc.

Stannis didn't send any letters to the Wall prior to the one announcing his victory at DM, because there was nothing to report from his PoV. Nor would it make any sense for him not to take Deepwood Motte birds, if he didn't get any from NW or the clans.

And yes, it still doesn't make sense from Stannis's PoV to send ravens while he is stuck in a blizzard. It isn't like anybody at the Wall can help him and people learning about his being in dire straits could only harm his cause.

The two Winterfell ravens are the only ones available to Stannis .

Then he couldn't possibly be behind the Pink Letter. Like most ravens, Tybald's birds can fly to one destination only, and it is not Castle Black.

[bemused]

Well, I can't now check if he took ravens or not and, of course, it may not be specifically mentioned even if he did. However, you yourself pointed out previously on these Jon re-read threads that the clans receive ravens, which means that they raise their own, distribute them to other important contacts such as NW and most likely send them too. One doesn't need a maester to send or receive ravens, after all, as demonstrated by Sam, Clydas, as well as Jon giving rangers who were supposed to approach wildlings birds, etc. In fact, we have learned from Bloodraven that raven-post used to be operated by the skinchangers, back before the Citadel or the coming of the Andals, who spoke the messages through the birds. Raven post is a First Men thing that was taken over by the maesters, but it doesn't mean that a maester is really needed to make it work. Just as there are still healers in Westeros, who are not maesters, etc.

Stannis didn't send any letters to the Wall prior to the one announcing his victory at DM, because there was nothing to report from his PoV. Nor would it make any sense for him not to take Deepwood Motte birds, if he didn't get any from NW or the clans.

And yes, it still doesn't make sense from Stannis's PoV to send ravens while he is stuck in a blizzard. It isn't like anybody at the Wall can help him and people learning about his being in dire straits could only harm his cause.

Then he couldn't possibly be behind the Pink Letter. Like most ravens, Tybald's birds can fly to one destination only, and it is not Castle Black.

There is something GRRM is leaving unsaid about ravens and the clans. It's obvious that you and I make different sense of the ambguities. Here's the pertinent bits of what is said between Jon and Stannis...

“It is no good sending messages. Your Grace will

need to go to them yourself.

*****

I could give you guides.”

“Could?” Stannis missed little. “Or will?”

“Will. You’ll need them. And some sure-footed garrons too. The paths up there are little more

than goat tracks.”

There is no mention of ravens...

We do have that one mention that I pointed out earlier about Aemon sending ravens ...

Maester Aemon had sent a lot of birds... a long list of recipients follows, ending with .... to the mountain fastnesses of the Liddles, the Burleys, the Norreys, the Harclays, and the Wulls, the black birds brought their plea. ..ASoS

... and we have the fact that the Liddle knew of Mormon't birds flying silent ( which he could have known by more than one method ). .. But there's no mention anywhere of anyone receiving a raven from the clans.

Why did Flint and Norrey not send word that they would be bringing wet nurses ? Why just turn up unannounced ? It's not as if they had to keep it secret from anyone , and it would have let Jon know his wet nurse problem was resolved and allowed for some attention to be paid to Flint and Norrey's billeting before they got there. ( I don't imagine CB keeps 30 or so empty beds made up, just in case anyone drops by..) ..Why would Stannis not send word about them, if everyone is as well supplied with ravens as you suggest ?

If those with blood of the first men remember ravencraft, why don't we see them use it ? Why don't the wildlings use it ? (They have villages. They're not all nomads.) Among the NW at CB, we see Aemon (while he had sight) , Clydas and Sam who can deal with the ravens. Why did Mormont want to take Sam with him , if anyone could do it ?.. Besides being able to write a message, it would seem there's a catch in knowing which birds fly where. Why did Roose need 3 maesters to gather up Luwin's ravens , instead of a couple of guys with nets ?.. If a ranger is given a bird that has already been identified , sure, he can tie on a message ( even a simple pre-arranged symbol) and let it go. I have no problem with that.

But GRRM has purposely been vague about it.John mentions garrons, but not ravens.

Then too,

why is the first

direct explanation we get about raven destinations only given in the TWoW Theon chapter , where we also have Stannis hatching plans and the ravens behaving so suspiciously ?

You can overlook the portentious behaviour of the ravens if you want,

and their probable connection to Bran and Bloodraven.. but the two extra ravens were not needed to reveal either Tybald's ID or Karstark's betrayal. They aren't even necessary to introduce the idea of taking Theon to the tree. Asha and the clans could do that on their own .

... Stannis doesn't want to alienate his northern allies.

I think GRRM has put them there (with the hints that they are inhabited) for a reason ..and therefore pronouncements of impossibility are premature to say the least.

[Franziska]

First of all, thanks for all the great stuff. The last four weeks I spent with reading this whole Re-Read. :)

Guys, can I just get this off my chest , so I can relax and discuss ? ( it's devouring me.)

A Foreshadowing and The Attack

<snip>

That's a great explanation and just some minutes ago, when I read the Epilogue of ADWD I realized that Mel made another misread in her vision.

Her words in Jon I are:

Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red an hard, and naked steel. It was very cold.

Now in the Epilogue Kevan Lannister walks into Pycelle's chamber. The room is dark because the fire is burned down. The window is open and the room is cold. Varys slams his fist in Kevan's chest and after that a quarrel is shot also in his chest. Immediately after this, blood sweeps out of his wound. Because of the cold Kevan is almost unable to move. After Varys speech about Aegon, the little birds appear with daggers in their hands.

Melisandres vision was right, but it was not Jon's fate she saw, it was Kevan's. Her thought was cold = the Wall, so it must be something that happens to Jon as Commander. She never imagined that it could be a vision of someone far away from her. (Just like she misread Alys for Arya)

[bemused]

Nice comparison, Franziska .. Bravo! I hadn't really paid attention to that before. ( I love the way there always seems to be more to find, no matter how often you re-read.)

Just looking at it now , here are a few stand-out lines ...

Once past the chamber door, the chill was palpable. Black ash and dying embers were all that remained of the hearthfire. A few flickering candles cast pools of dim light here and there.

The rest was shrouded in shadow … except beneath the open window, where a spray of ice

crystals glittered in the moonlight, swirling in the wind.

he blinked and saw the deep red gash in the old man’s spotted skull and the blood pooled beneath his head, staining the pages of his book.

Ser Kevan was cold as ice, and every labored breath sent a fresh stab of pain through him.

Kevan Lannister tried to cry out … to his guards, his wife, his brother … but the words would not

come. Blood dribbled from his mouth. He shuddered violently.

They were all around him, half a dozen of them, white-faced children with dark eyes, boys and girls together.

And in their hands, the daggers.

We have ice, daggers in the dark... with the window open both Kevan's and Pycelle's blood will be frozen hard pretty quickly . Naked steel might imply swords more than daggers to some, but it could be a second dagger reference .. and what about the crossbow bolts ? ... We can see it's very cold.

I think this is very intriguing. (and of course it only adds to my feeling that Mel is wrong about Hardhome.) ;)

Just on a side note, just as Varys doesn't want Kevan around... winter doesn't seem to either.On his way to Pycelle's chamber...

As Ser Kevan made his way across the inner ward, the castle seemed an alien place, where every keep and tower had grown icy teeth, and all familiar paths had vanished beneath a white blanket. Once an icicle long as a spear fell to shatter by his feet.

[Mithras]

It is clear that George wants us to compare the assassinations of Kevan and Jon.

I also suspect that the bolt of Varys was poisoned (possibly with wolfsbane). This is a paralyzing poison used on arrow heads to hunt large dangerous preys (lions and wolves qualify I guess). Varys no doubt wanted Kevan to die silently and meekly where he shot him. He didnot want him to fight back or raise the alarm.

Varys also said that the crossbow is fitting for Kevan becaue he and Tywin shared much. Oberyn Poisoned Tywin theory makes sense and according to that, a poisoned bolt might complete the picture.

Wolfsbane can also explain why Jon was not able to react or draw Longclaw. I think due to the paralyzing effect of wolfsbane, the assassins will not hear heartbeat from Jon and they will put him into the ice cell mistakingly thinking him as dead.

[Julia H.]

First of all, thanks for all the great stuff. The last four weeks I spent with reading this whole Re-Read. :)

That's a great explanation and just some minutes ago, when I read the Epilogue of ADWD I realized that Mel made another misread in her vision.

Her words in Jon I are:

Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red an hard, and naked steel. It was very cold.

Now in the Epilogue Kevan Lannister walks into Pycelle's chamber. The room is dark because the fire is burned down. The window is open and the room is cold. Varys slams his fist in Kevan's chest and after that a quarrel is shot also in his chest. Immediately after this, blood sweeps out of his wound. Because of the cold Kevan is almost unable to move. After Varys speech about Aegon, the little birds appear with daggers in their hands.

Melisandres vision was right, but it was not Jon's fate she saw, it was Kevan's. Her thought was cold = the Wall, so it must be something that happens to Jon as Commander. She never imagined that it could be a vision of someone far away from her. (Just like she misread Alys for Arya)

Great finding! :cheers:

"Daggers in the dark" is repeated several times in Jon's story-line, and the last word of the Epilogue is also daggers. The emphasis on the word is quite clear. Actually it is "the daggers", as though referring to daggers that have been mentioned before.

It would be typical of Mel to make such a mistake (although she does know Jon Snow, while she did not know Arya or Alys). She is beginning to look like an anti-Cassandra – her predictions are hardly ever correct, yet most people believe her.

Nice comparison, Franziska .. Bravo! I hadn't really paid attention to that before. ( I love the way there always seems to be more to find, no matter how often you re-read.)

Just looking at it now , here are a few stand-out lines ...

:agree:

I was wondering where ice would come in, but you have found that, too. Amazing.

It is clear that George wants us to compare the assassinations of Kevan and Jon.

I also suspect that the bolt of Varys was poisoned (possibly with wolfsbane). This is a paralyzing poison used on arrow heads to hunt large dangerous preys (lions and wolves qualify I guess). Varys no doubt wanted Kevan to die silently and meekly where he shot him. He didnot want him to fight back or raise the alarm.

Varys also said that the crossbow is fitting for Kevan becaue he and Tywin shared much. Oberyn Poisoned Tywin theory makes sense and according to that, a poisoned bolt might complete the picture.

Wolfsbane can also explain why Jon was not able to react or draw Longclaw. I think due to the paralyzing effect of wolfsbane, the assassins will not hear heartbeat from Jon and they will put him into the ice cell mistakingly thinking him as dead.

Wolfsbane... It gives me strange associations :eek: but it does sound appropriate in the case of Jon, and I've just discovered that (according to the Wikipedia) the plant is sometimes called leopard's bane as well, so I guess it is appropriate in the case of a lion, too.

Basically, just as Jon is not pronounced dead at the end of his last chapter in ADwD, Kevan is also technically alive at the end of the Epilogue. I confess I see little chance for him to survive (and wolfsbane seems to act pretty quickly), but at the same time I'm quite convinced that Jon will live. So the question is not only who will save him but also what will save him? What sort of antidote to wolfsbane is available - and quickly - in the North?

[Franziska]

Today during work I had a little bit time to think about the last sentences of Jon XIII.

He fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...

he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow.

Maybe I could get this wrong, because english is not my mother tongue but this part suddenly sounds to me like acting. A grunt is something I normally combine with pigs but not with humans (unless Jon just decided to start the first Death Metal band of Westeros :lol:). And to fall down could just be some feint before he defends himself against his attackers. A skilled fighter like Jon surely would try to get an advantage in this situation.

the cold...

The cold what? Until now I always read it as something he feels physical (air, ground, etc.), but what if it is more a sentiment? GRRM mentions sometimes cold rage. Eddard left KL with cold rage after the death of Rhaenys and Aegon and Jon feels cold rage at the beginning of AGoT when Donal Noye rebukes him. Right now I have not found more examples but maybe there are more.

So what feels cold for Jon? The sentence is not finished so we don't know, but it could be anything.

[Fire Eater]

It is clear that George wants us to compare the assassinations of Kevan and Jon.

I also suspect that the bolt of Varys was poisoned (possibly with wolfsbane). This is a paralyzing poison used on arrow heads to hunt large dangerous preys (lions and wolves qualify I guess). Varys no doubt wanted Kevan to die silently and meekly where he shot him. He didnot want him to fight back or raise the alarm.

Varys also said that the crossbow is fitting for Kevan becaue he and Tywin shared much. Oberyn Poisoned Tywin theory makes sense and according to that, a poisoned bolt might complete the picture.

Wolfsbane can also explain why Jon was not able to react or draw Longclaw. I think due to the paralyzing effect of wolfsbane, the assassins will not hear heartbeat from Jon and they will put him into the ice cell mistakingly thinking him as dead.

Varys says "for the children" while Bowen says "for the Watch." Yet Varys killed a man who was stabilizing the situation in KL bringing the Tyrells back into the fold while Bowen was trying to kill Jon who was stabilizing the situation at the Wall by bringing the wildlings into the fold.

[bemused]

Fire Eater .. Ahhhh.. Very tidy..:)

[Julia H.]

Today during work I had a little bit time to think about the last sentences of Jon XIII.

He fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...

he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow.

Maybe I could get this wrong, because english is not my mother tongue but this part suddenly sounds to me like acting. A grunt is something I normally combine with pigs but not with humans (unless Jon just decided to start the first Death Metal band of Westeros :lol:). And to fall down could just be some feint before he defends himself against his attackers. A skilled fighter like Jon surely would try to get an advantage in this situation.

the cold...

The cold what? Until now I always read it as something he feels physical (air, ground, etc.), but what if it is more a sentiment? GRRM mentions sometimes cold rage. Eddard left KL with cold rage after the death of Rhaenys and Aegon and Jon feels cold rage at the beginning of AGoT when Donal Noye rebukes him. Right now I have not found more examples but maybe there are more.

So what feels cold for Jon? The sentence is not finished so we don't know, but it could be anything.

I remember reading a post where someone suggested the sentence Only the cold ... might directly continue in the next book, something like this:

He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold ... rage as he (...)

I can't find the post, so I don't know who suggested it and where. Was it bemused? Or someone else? ;) I do like the idea.

Varys says "for the children" while Bowen says "for the Watch." Yet Varys killed a man who was stabilizing the situation in KL bringing the Tyrells back into the fold while Bowen was trying to kill Jon who was stabilizing the situation at the Wall by bringing the wildlings into the fold.

Once again: Amazing.

Now, I wonder why these close parallels. Obviously, both scenes are about an assassination attempt, but why the further similarities? Do they suggest that the driving force behind the two is the same? Could Varys, the great manipulator, be behind Bowen Marsh, even if not necessarily directly but some steps removed? (Wait a minute, is that a new theory? :eek: Oh, well, probably not. All possible theories must have been mentioned by now.) What other connections could there be? Is it only that GRRM likes to do North-South mirror things?

On a different aspect of the assassination attempt: Re-reading the next chapters for the Direwolves re-read, I came across this quote in Tyrion I AGoT (Tyrion is talking about Bran and his wolf):

“I would swear that wolf of his is keeping the boy alive. The creature is outside his window day and night, howling. Every time they chase it away, it returns. The maester said they closed the window once, to shut out the noise, and Bran seemed to weaken. When they opened it again, his heart beat stronger.”

This seems to be a connection that is somewhat different from warging, or which is a different sort of warging. The focus is not on the human's spirit entering the wolf, but on the physical proximity of the wolf to the human, the hearing of the wolf's sound. Now, Ghost is a "silent wolf", so he is not likely to "heal" Jon with his voice, but his proximity might help. On second thoughts, Ghost managed to "call out" to Jon in the first chapter in AGoT - is it possible that with Jon being in mortal danger, he will suddenly find his voice and start howling? It could be quite poignant and dramatic.

[bemused]

Julia H .. I know I've brought up that only the cold... point somewhere along the line. (maybe others have too , I don't know.)

I did a search of this : ... Grrm doesn't normally use it to trail off into nothing. Either one person is speaking , but another interrupts, like this :

Barristan -“Her Grace is not … she …”

The GG - “… is dead. May the gods grant her sweet sleep.” Tears glistened behind her veils. “Let her dragons die as well.”

Or, it's used as a pause in a character's thoughts ,or speech , but finished off by a further thought on the other side :

The GG speaking to Barristan - Yunkai fears them … and with good cause, you cannot deny.

Or from Dany's POV - Hers had been a lonely sojourn, and for most of it she had been hurt and hungry … yet despite it all she had been strangely happy here. A few aches, an empty belly, chills by night … what does it matter when you can fly? I would do it all again.

And all of the prologues end firmly with a period. None of those dying character's POVs trail off.

Even in the case of Bran's "fall" - we know he goes into a coma, but he isn't given a fade out. That chapter ends ...

Somewhere off in the distance, a wolf was howling. Crows circled the broken tower, waiting for corn.

[Fire Eater]

Once again: Amazing.

Now, I wonder why these close parallels. Obviously, both scenes are about an assassination attempt, but why the further similarities? Do they suggest that the driving force behind the two is the same? Could Varys, the great manipulator, be behind Bowen Marsh, even if not necessarily directly but some steps removed? (Wait a minute, is that a new theory? :eek: Oh, well, probably not. All possible theories must have been mentioned by now.) What other connections could there be? Is it only that GRRM likes to do North-South mirror things?

Thanks

Varys says he is doing it for the children (he means like the ones whose tongues he had torn out?), yet he is doing it not for his purported altruistic motives, but since Kevan's actions clashed with his agenda, namely Aegon, while Kevan was backing the wrong king, according to Varys. Marsh is supposedly doing it for the Watch, yet he attempts to kill the LC for his plans clashing with his agenda, namely, not sealing the Wall, letting the wildlings through and not backing the right king. Marsh sees Tommen as the right king while Varys sees him as the wrong king.

[Bloodrobin]

Thanks

Varys says he is doing it for the children (he means like the ones whose tongues he had torn out?), yet he is doing it not for his purported altruistic motives, but since Kevan's actions clashed with his agenda, namely Aegon, while Kevan was backing the wrong king, according to Varys. Marsh is supposedly doing it for the Watch, yet he attempts to kill the LC for his plans clashing with his agenda, namely, not sealing the Wall, letting the wildlings through and not backing the right king. Marsh sees Tommen as the right king while Varys sees him as the wrong king.

By saying children, Varys may be referring to the descendants of Aerion, like the son who was passed over in the succession to put Egg on the throne. I know you are aware of the Varys Brightflame theories. Of course this has little to do with the topic at hand... :leaving: