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Missing swords from Winterfells crypt


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#1 cmclain5

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 11:57 PM

I'm Interested in everyone's ideas about the missing swords in Winterfells crypt. We're they valaryian steel? Who or what is taking them?

#2 Nozlym

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 12:01 AM

they were taken by osha, jojen and meera for protection when they were hiding out

 

they were made of bronze i believe



#3 Arataniello

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 08:31 AM

they were taken by osha, jojen and meera for protection when they were hiding out

 

they were made of bronze i believe

 

One of them is described "rusted" or "corroded", so it's more likely they are made of iron or steel. 

 

Furthermore, If memory serves, the swords taken were from statues of some of the more recent Stark Lords of Winterfell, and therefore they are unlikely to be made of bronze.



#4 Prince of the North

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 12:31 PM

They were all iron swords because the colloquial belief is that the iron kept the ghosts or spirits of the dead from "escaping", etc.  That's what the Starks do or maybe it's a tradition that traces it's beginnings back to the First Men?



#5 cmclain5

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 01:18 AM

Ooo...so now that the iron swords are missing, is there a possibility of some ghost action at winterfell?

#6 Nozlym

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 01:38 AM

ya there was a thread about iron and bronze and what they might entail.

 

cant seem to find it but it was rather interesting



#7 cmclain5

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 01:52 AM

That would actually be a great plot twist for the winterfell battle.

#8 Rodrik of Dorne

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 06:59 PM

The interesting thing is that the First Men of Westeros never developed iron metallurgy. The Andals came with Iron. It means it can't possibly be a First Men superstition, but a Andal superstition, or a later Northern superstition, from after iron was introduced into the North.


Edited by Rodrik of Dorne, 25 June 2014 - 06:59 PM.


#9 cmclain5

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 02:23 AM

If osha, jojen, and Meera took them, they surely would be aware of the superstitions.

#10 OnlyOne

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 08:24 AM

Ooo...so now that the iron swords are missing, is there a possibility of some ghost action at winterfell?


Finally somebody picking up on my "the swords are missing comments. I'm not so sure about ghosts in the literal sense, but I have a feeling there are secrets in those crypts. Proceed.

#11 Arataniello

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 06:37 AM

In an indirect way, the swords going missing DID release a ghost in winterfell.

 

The reason that Bran and Rickon his in the crypts was a direct result of Theon's actions.  Those same actions in turn led to the fall of Winterfell at the end of book 2, allowing Bran and Rickon to leave the crypts, taking the missing swords with them.

 

Theon's capture, torture and subsequent return to Winterfell as "The Ghost in Winterfell" are thus part of the whole chain of events that included the swrods being removed from the crypts.



#12 cmclain5

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 06:48 AM

The books start out with the stark family and is still centralized around them. You can bet your butt that Winterfell and the remaining Starks will have a prominent end role.

#13 StarkTarg

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 06:59 AM

I wonder how much the Lightbringer prophecy has to do with those missing swords?

#14 AryaNymeriaVisenya

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 08:02 AM

Also interesting that the crown of Winter was a circlet of swords. They form a chain that cannot be broken.



#15 Lady of Dragonstone

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 10:37 AM

The interesting thing is that the First Men of Westeros never developed iron metallurgy. The Andals came with Iron. It means it can't possibly be a First Men superstition, but a Andal superstition, or a later Northern superstition, from after iron was introduced into the North.

 

 The "superstition" didn't have to be introduced after the Andals, or the iron. The Starks could have very well introduced the superstition themselves (after all, they've been in the North for 8,000 years) or it could be associated with an Old God practice that we know nothing of. I don't think the material of the swords that Bran and company took has anything to do with the origins of the practice.

 

like Arataniello pointed out, at least one of the swords taken was iron because it was rusted. This probably did come from a more recent ancestor.... it's been a while since I've read AGOT so I can't remember for sure either. We don't see any modern day fighter who wields a sword of bronze, do we? Correct me if I am wrong. I assume that all or most swords, after a certain point, were made of iron or steel. The material that the smith used may be, excuse the pun, immaterial. Critically thinking, I assume that these swords protecting the bodies were perhaps the dead's own sword - if the smith was only making them for the graves, he may have continued to only use bronze for the swords that would only guard the bodies of the dead. Those are just my guesses.

 

Interestingly, Google tells me that in Celtic mythology, swords "indicate victories won for the purpose of insuring the survival of blood lineage."  Hmmm.... I certainly think the fact that the swords are gone indicates that something WILL happen in the crypts. There have been some very interesting theories about that, I read some of them in the Heresy threads. I would very much recommend checking out what they had to say. I can't remember which thread it was, sorry.


Edited by Lady of Dragonstone, 04 July 2014 - 10:38 AM.


#16 History of Westeros

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 12:48 PM

I find it interesting that the Stark Lords/Kings in the crypt are carved in such a hostile posture.

 

Every Stark crypt has a sword across his lap:

 

By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts.

 

and:

 

“Any man of the Night’s Watch is welcome here at Winterfell for as long as he wishes to stay,” Robb was saying with the voice of Robb the Lord. His sword was across his knees, the steel bare for all the world to see. Even Bran knew what it meant to greet a guest with an unsheathed sword.

 

Perhaps it is as simple as, "no one is welcome guest in the crypts" :)



#17 jon_fire_silver

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:35 PM

Ohhh..
Right..
I would like to add one more event related to jon snow.
He dont want to go in to those crypts but he has to go in his dreams.

Edited by jon_fire_silver, 16 July 2014 - 12:37 PM.


#18 ReRe

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 04:43 PM

The Starks are buried with swords "to keep [thier] ghosts at rest" (CoK, 961).  Even though Ned's body is not in the crypt, "his stately granite likeness" is (CoK, 960).  As Bram and his friends leave the crypts, where they have been hiding, Meera takes Lord Rickard's sword, Osha takes the sword Mikken made for Ned's tomb, and Bran takes his uncle Brandon's sword.  As Bram leaves the crypts, "he turned to give his father one last look, and it seemed to Bran that there was a sadness in Lord Eddard's eyes, as if he didn't want them to go" (CoK, 961).

 

I can only conclude that the ghosts of Ned, Lord Rickard, and Brandon cannot rest now.  In fact, they may be the "ghosts" at Winterfell responsible for the murders during "Arya's wedding."  This would be an awesome method for Ned's ghost to seek justice.  It would also give him an opportunity to tell Jon about his mother.

 

The crypts have significance in the story.  Several chararacters have visited them and dreamed about them.  The missing swords are also mentioned at least twice.  Also, it would be ridiculous for the lady at the wedding to ask Theon to view the crypts and remark about the missing swords, if there wasn't some foreshadowing.

 

Naysayers will note that Ned's body never made it back to Winterfell. His body was returned to Catelyn at Riverrun by the Silent Sisters, and Catelyn told them to return Ned's body to the crypts of Winterfell.  However, at the time that Winterfell burns and Bran hides in the crypts, Ned's tomb is still empty.  However, a Stark who isn't buried at Winterfell with a sword...is just not going to be able "to rest."



#19 ReRe

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 04:56 PM

they were taken by osha, jojen and meera for protection when they were hiding out

 

they were made of bronze i believe

They were taken by Osha, Meera, and Bran.  I believe they were made of steel.  "A naked sword hung down her [Osha's] back, one of the last to bear Mikken's mark.  He had forged it for Lord Eddard's tomb, to keep his ghost at rest. But with Mikken slain and the ironmen gurading the armory, good steel had been hard to resist..." Osha took Ned's sword, Meera took Lord Rickard's sword, and Bran took his uncle Brandon's sword.



#20 Ghosts Lunch

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 03:48 AM

Also interesting that the crown of Winter was a circlet of swords. They form a chain that cannot be broken.

 

Iron swords as well

 

Thanks for that, i was wondering why they would have such a povo form of crown (it does have Rubies in it etc) but it probably all links into the role of Iron

 

I wonder fi the original crown is under the crypts (Robbs was a near replica)