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R+L=J is inconsistent with J+D


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#1 Juliet Burke

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:03 PM

Many fans believe that if R+L is true Jon will marry Dany. But what about the incest? I know it is old Targaryen's tradition but why do fans want this pairing, if it is abnormal in our society? Moreover, Jon considers himself member of Stark's family so I don't think he will like incest? What do you think?

#2 joluoto2

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:09 PM

I don't see Jon and Dany happening at all. First of all Jon is a brother of the Night's Watch. Second, I just can't imagine those two together. And Third: the people suggesting this also think they'll end up king and queen. Jon would probably not even want to be king, and honestly the further away from the Game of Thrones he is the better. And Daenerys can't have children, so there is literally no future for her dynasty (through her at least). 

 

((And lastly I don't think either of them will survive)).



#3 Ygritte

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:10 PM

Well, I'll answer this as someone who believes R+L=J and used to believe J+D was coming. (I'm not sure anymore, but I used to be pretty convinced.)

 

There are two kinds of shipping really--"I'm rooting for this to happen" and "I think this is happening/will happen, whether I'm rooting for it or not." I saw the Jon/Dany pairing as a manifestation of that "bittersweet ending" GRRM talks about. Because they could save the kingdom and marry and maybe even be personally happy, but their dynasty would carry the seeds of its own destruction in that the continued Targ inbreeding would likely result in more Aeryses down the line and history having to repeat itself.



#4 Juliet Burke

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:23 PM

I don't see Jon and Dany happening at all. First of all Jon is a brother of the Night's Watch. Second, I just can't imagine those two together. And Third: the people suggesting this also think they'll end up king and queen. Jon would probably not even want to be king, and honestly the further away from the Game of Thrones he is the better. And Daenerys can't have children, so there is literally no future for her dynasty (through her at least). 
 
((And lastly I don't think either of them will survive)).

About the children: Martin said in SSM that it is not absolutely known that Dany can't have children. He said that it is unknown if Mirri Maz Duur told the truth or not.

#5 Ygritte

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:26 PM

About the children: Martin said in SSM that it is not absolutely known that Dany can't have children. He said that it is unknown if Mirri Maz Duur told the truth or not.

 

I subscribe to the theory that she thought she was telling the truth at the time, because the conditions she mentioned were impossible, but we all know what happens when Burnam Wood comes to Dunsinane.



#6 Aeron_Damphair

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:26 PM

About the children: Martin said in SSM that it is not absolutely known that Dany can't have children. He said that it is unknown if Mirri Maz Duur told the truth or not.

Well she had her moon's blood in her last ADWD chapter, so I don't know why we'd assume that she can't.



#7 Pengwin7

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:28 PM

In my own crackpot theory, Jon & Daenerys are twins.

Unpopular theory... I know... with a lot to be explained.

[This does actually work a bit better than Dany being Aunt to Jon... if somebody wants two Targs to marry.]

 

But... I don't think the point of the book is that two Targaryens need to marry and birth a line of future Targs.

I believe there is need of a three-headed dragon, three dragon riders, which will be all of Targ blood:  Tyrion, Jon, Dany.

But... I'm guessing that two will die in the final battle: Jon (Ice) & Dany (Fire)

.

Tyrion will survive, as king, and be the last Targaryen.

 

I don't see Jon/Dany marrying or any need for them to marry to provide a quality story ending.


Edited by Pengwin7, 24 June 2014 - 03:31 PM.


#8 Ygritte

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:30 PM

Well she had her moon's blood in her last ADWD chapter, so I don't know why we'd assume that she can't.

 

Or miscarried, even.



#9 Juliet Burke

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:32 PM

I don't understand why people want R+L=J and J&D at the same time? I think relationships between aunt and nephew are abnormal. I would love J+D without R+L=J. And I think it is cliche being R+L=J and J&D at the same time.

#10 Amonra

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:36 PM

There is a difference between sleeping with your Aunt you have known all your life and someone who you have never met before.

The Starks have married Cousin to Cousin before and this is not that much worse, added to the fact that is less that the typical Targaryen Brother to Sister.



#11 Amonra

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:37 PM

I don't understand why people want R+L=J and J&D at the same time? I think relationships between aunt and nephew are abnormal. I would love J+D without R+L=J. And I think it is cliche being R+L=J and J&D at the same time.

How can something be abnormal and cliche at the same time?

Abnormal means not normal/ unusual

Cliche means normal/ usual



#12 eagleheart

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:39 PM

Twilight has the wolfman falling in love with a vampire baby.

 

In a series that has highlighted the incestuous love between twins since the beginning of the series and made mention of brother and sister marrying, I don't think R+L=J marrying Danny would be that big a deal.   OP mentions " if it is abnormal in our society? ". - Well this series is not about our society.



#13 Maester Pedant

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:51 PM

I wouldn't even consider that incest. They are not siblings, they are not father-daughter, or mother-son, or any other combination of that sort. They would be aunt-nephew. Matches like that have occurred historically without being considered incest, and are still legal in many parts of the world. It would be weird, yes, from our point of view, but it wouldn't be any more weird than loads of other matches between closely related people found throughout ASoIaF.

 

Case in point: Rhaenyra Targaryen and her uncle and husband, Daemon Targaryen.

 

Also, the fact that they are aunt and nephew would be, from their point of view, merely "academic" and probably just politically expedient. It's not like they were raised together and knew from their first years of life that they were related. So far in the story, they haven't even heard about each other. So if they ever meet and end up marrying, from an emotional point of view it will be as if they are not related at all.



#14 Aeron_Damphair

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 04:22 PM

I don't understand why people want R+L=J and J&D at the same time? I think relationships between aunt and nephew are abnormal. I would love J+D without R+L=J. And I think it is cliche being R+L=J and J&D at the same time.

Well, people may or may not want J&D, but R+L=J doesn't really have anything to do with what anybody wants. It's just what's written.



#15 Fool of a Book

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 04:34 PM

R+L=J people will say, oh that's how the Targs did it, no biggie.

 

A good question deserving of discussion beyond R+L=J.



#16 Light a wight tonight

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 04:34 PM

Many fans believe that if R+L is true Jon will marry Dany. But what about the incest? I know it is old Targaryen's tradition but why do fans want this pairing, if it is abnormal in our society? Moreover, Jon considers himself member of Stark's family so I don't think he will like incest? What do you think?

What about the incest? That's been occurring since Book One and earlier. It's embedded in the plot. Dany's the product of an incestuous marriage. You remember the passage where Viserys said that if Dany had been born earlier she could have married her brother Rhaegar, to which she replied that if Viserys had been born a girl he could have. Brother-sister is closer than aunt-nephew.

 

If Jon considers himself a Stark then he's not a Targ so marrying Dany wouldn't be incest in his eyes, would it? 



#17 Light a wight tonight

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 04:35 PM

Double post, please ignore


Edited by Light a wight tonight, 24 June 2014 - 04:36 PM.


#18 Fool of a Book

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 05:04 PM

What about the incest?

 

Called it.



#19 TheNinjaDC

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 05:27 PM

J+D I feel has become more a theoretically popular, instead of actually popular. The sort of theory everyones notes allot believe in but have a hard time giving specific names.

 

The reason it is so assumed is because Dany, Jon, and Tyrion are the big three. In big series usually two of the big three end up hooking up. Tyrion while popular, no one assumes he is a pair for Dany(or Jon, since both don't swing that way). So it is just naturally assumed those two will hook up, just because.

 

With that said, Dany & Jon's connection is akin to a cousin marriage, which is not abnormal to this society, even for the Starks.

 

Also, allot of people that do support it are tied to the show, and have no knowledge of R+L=J. 


Edited by TheNinjaDC, 24 June 2014 - 05:46 PM.


#20 Amonra

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 05:37 PM


With that said, Dany & Jon's connection is akin to a cousin marriage, which is abnormal to this society, even for the Starks.

No, its actually quite normal.

Ned's parents were cousins. Tyrion's parents were cousins. Hell, Dany's parents were brother and sister.

All three of the main characters are some sort of product of incest.