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R+L=J is inconsistent with J+D


Juliet Burke

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No, its actually quite normal.

Ned's parents were cousins. Tyrion's parents were cousins. Hell, Dany's parents were brother and sister.

All three of the main characters are some sort of product of incest.

Oops, Forgot to put the not in my sentence. But I agree. :P

I was actually specifically alluding to Ned's, mother.

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Westeros is somewhat based on our own medieval society, and since the Habsburg dynasty got away with incest way past the middle ages it really wouldn't be that outrageous. Besides, Westerosi incest doesn't have the nasty consequences it has in real life, so it wouldn't really be a problem.



That being said, I do hope they don't end up together, as I would consider that just a tad too cliché. My theory is that they'll meet, one of them will fall in love with the other, but the other won't reciprocate and they don't end up together. That would be toying with the conventions but ultimately rejecting them, something I think is much more in GRRM's alley than two of the story's 'heroes' living happily ever after.


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A theory backed with evidence indicating the eventual reveal of a past event is nullified because its "inconsistent" with a (currently) fan fiction hope that Dany and Jon will eventually marry eachother, on the grounds that it cant happen because its incest in a series that has seen an abundance of even worse incest.



Did I get that right?


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Why should GRRM care what the fans want, it is his story.

I'd rather GRRM tell the tale he wants to tell without pandering to the audience's morality.

Also incestuous marriages are common in history in regards to nobility and even more so in royalty, distant cousins and first cousins etc.

Just look at the Habsburgs and Bourbons.

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I believe in R+L=J and that J+D will happen, but I don't think that it will be the final relationship for at least Jon (possibly Dany, but...). R+L=J has all the evidence it already does, no need for explanation. The HotU prophecy gives her an image of riding her silver to Drogo, of a corpse on a ship, and a blue rose blossoming in a wall of ice, and then Dany hears "mother of dragons, bride of fire." So it seems to me that she is gonna hook up with Jon (and more specifically, that he's the third of the mounts she'll ride, the one for love). That's the only real reason I consider it a thing.


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As far as Dany/Jon, it wouldn't be as bad as the usual Targ incest in terms of the gene pool needing some variation, thanks to him being half-Stark. (Aegon, if real, would be the same, half-Martell as he is.) I don't ship it, but really, there's real-world parallels and I'm an amateur student of history; it's normal enough and I wouldn't be squicked out if it happened.



To be honest, though, I don't think Dany is likely to marry should she become Queen, to either of her potential nephews or anyone else. While I believe she actually can still have children - or at least become pregnant; it is possible she was damaged internally and can't carry to term - she believes she can't, and unless that belief changes, then we have to assume her actions will be informed by it regardless of if she's right or wrong. She married Hizdahr for peace, not a potential heir, and while she might consider marrying for that reason again, I don't think she'd marry another Targaryen. She'd want that other Targaryen - or Targaryens if both a real/believed real Aegon and Jon are in play - producing heirs since she "can't".


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Oops, Forgot to put the not in my sentence. But I agree. :P

I was actually specifically alluding to Ned's, mother.

Relationships between cousins were normal in Europe not only in the Middle Ages, but between aunt and nephew... I don't think it were normal in our society.
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Westeros is somewhat based on our own medieval society, and since the Habsburg dynasty got away with incest way past the middle ages it really wouldn't be that outrageous. Besides, Westerosi incest doesn't have the nasty consequences it has in real life, so it wouldn't really be a problem.

That being said, I do hope they don't end up together, as I would consider that just a tad too cliché. My theory is that they'll meet, one of them will fall in love with the other, but the other won't reciprocate and they don't end up together. That would be toying with the conventions but ultimately rejecting them, something I think is much more in GRRM's alley than two of the story's 'heroes' living happily ever after.

Jaime and Cersei's incest seems to be leading to House Lannister's demise.

Dany to fall in love with Jon but Jon to stay true to his vows and/or the Starks.

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Relationships between cousins were normal in Europe not only in the Middle Ages, but between aunt and nephew... I don't think it were normal in our society.

But Westeros is not our society.

Daemon and Rhyenyra married each other despite being uncle/niece.

Targaryens get away with a lot of incest in westeros. Aunt/nephew wont be that big a problem.

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Dany may be Jon's aunt, but they are the same age. As for the incest, not only does it happen all the time, it could actually be argued that it is necessary to maintain the Targ superpowers / dragonblood. At least the Targs seem to have believed so in the past.


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I don't think our detached contemporary societal boundaries and degrees of conservatism should render the possibility of both theories coexisting as inconsistent or undesired, especially since the characters involved live in a time of common normalised incest.


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I can buy the theory on a number of points.



1. I believe the second Dance will be heavily paralleled by the first with Dany as Rhaenyra. Jon would then be a Daemon figure, a nephew instead of an uncle consort


2. Incest is what the Targaryens did. i don't have to like it in real life, but to appreciate Jon and Dany as characters you have to accept that this is their blood. also, it's fantasy. Jaime and Cersei doing it taboo is waaay worse and he has plenty of fans.


3. Ice and Fire. They may not be a lot alike according to some, but their arcs being on the opposite ends of the world makes it seem fitting to me. Jon deals with the Ice threat. Dany is the Fire threat. If anything, I'd say the setup of their arcs was supposed to make the pairing look all but impossible so it could be a surprise in the end, but alas, forums ruined that. ;)


4. Neither has a "type" as many claimed. Dany has been with three men and only one she chose herself as an adult woman with a healthy sexuality. He was nothing like her first husband other than the vague description of "warrior" and her second husband she cannot stand. Jon was with one woman Ygritte and honestly a lot of that was to survive among the wildlings, and the current woman he's subconciously interested in looks like an eskimo Dany. The type argument against is stupid.


5. I'm more invested in Dany's happiness than Jon's, so I think it would be very sweet for Dany to end up with the only surviving son of the brother she idolizes without having ever met him. Dany is as obsessed with Rhaegar as this fandom is, and while, yes, incest is gross (hope I don't offend any familial lovers when I say this. whatever floats your boat) I just think it would be one of the very few things that would make Dany truly happy, being with the son of her beloved lost brother.



So after typing all that I both need to take a shower and need to go on tumblr and find images like this.


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I'm not sure incest is much of a problem -- as some have pointed out, it figures heavily in the books. For now -- Jon is mostly a "Stark"... It would be sort of bitter sweet if he married Dany; and only realized later the truth of his birth -- leading to lots of angst. ;)



However, I'm not certain that Jon would ever end up with Dany if he was aware of his heritage... I am not certain that Jon's Gods are all right with aunt/nephew marriages. That is not normal in westeros, imo. Cousin marriages are a different matter -- and legal today in plenty of places around the world; it's not every society that considers cousin marriage incest; and in westeros it certainly isn't incest at all... but aunt/nephew? even in societies were cousin marriage are common -- there's laws and customs and such -- for ex. it might be alright to marry your maternal aunts son....but be deemed incestuous if you married your paternal uncle's son...both would be first cousins to the subject -- but one through the male line; the other through the female line....



Anyway, incest taboos exist in every society -- they are just defined differently; hence first cousins in westeros might be alright...aunt/nephew would imo, be a different matter; we have not heard of any such marriages outside of House Targaryen.



More to the point though -- I don't think they'd get along as lovers. Allies, maybe. Have a sort of sibling/kin dynamic, why not? But.... Jon doesn't seem Dany's type much; he has no forked beard or golden tooth; has no long, braided hair and copper skin; probably still appears quite boyish (slender build, average height + youth); lacks Daario's cockiness and arrogance; Drogo’s thirst for blood and lustiness.... he's much too serious and sullen, too. Also, the way I see it, Dany sort of has the tendency to let herself be "dominated" by men -- even when she tries to appear in control. Viserys's "education" has left its mark; and though she's trying to be a ruler/queen...and a dragon :) ; deep down I think she's still the same insecure, little girl...and Jon is really not the macho, domineering type.



If you mix up both Drogo and Daario -- Gerold Dayne seem a candidate for becoming Dany's next paramour.... As for Jon he was attracted to Ygritte (no matter that some are debating it today) . Maybe even sort of in love with her...I'm saying sort of, because I think that it was mostly a strong sort of affection -- she was the first woman he was with; and he liked her as a...good friend?... Ygritte was a funny; bold; confident, boyish sort of girl...she reminded Jon of Arya -- that's a bit weird, admittedly; but well... I think this speaks for attraction + confusing affection/friensdhip; not necessarily romantic love.



If we look at other women Jon seems fond of, there is Alys Karstark -- also bold; also skinny/boyish; also willful. Also reminds him of Arya...Alys seems to have taken up the role of Jon's "sister," though -- that's alright too ;)



Then there is Val....a free-woman, but not your typical free woman. She's willful -- but knows when to bow. She's playful; but knows when to be serious. She's proven herself to be more than a pretty face as well; she was able to find Tormund while riding alone, beyond the wall, with a blind horse. Val is not a warrior type like Ygritte -- but she's not the sort to let herself be dominated by men...Jarl was her toy, remember?... anyway; there's a few hints going toward a Jon/Val hook up; and there certainly seems to be a bit of flirting going on -- and that kiss on the cheek....in a conservative, middle age society; in an enviornment were women are forbidden -- this small and to us innocent kiss; from a girl who is not Jon's kin, would imo signify something much more important than we think...



In any case; with Val we seem to have bold + willful + lady like all rolled up in one...in any case... Dany + Jon; doesn’t seem a good fit to me; and I don’t think I’m the only one who has that opinion...So not every fan who believes in R+L= J, also thinks Jon will end up with Dany... though, I expect them to fight on the same side, at some point.


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The type argument is rather empty. She was sold to Drogo, she didn't like him for his type. She learned to love him for him because the alternative was kill herself. She chooses Daario for a variety of reasons, but not just because he's like Drogo (which he isn't really, IMO).



The type argument can really only matter if Dany and Jon have the time to develop a relationship/romance, and I don't think even the tumblr fans really think theirs would be a "loving" one. If it happens at all, it will be a political alliance. They may not work as lovers because each seems the opposite of what the other wants, but they could be fond of one another. I believe that's one of their linking themes in the R+L=J schools of thought... fondness.


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In my reads i've seen incest as a red flag for trouble. People who partake in it produce terrible children. No not all the time but it is a sign of something bad. It was practiced by Aerys, and Cersei producing terrible sons. (Joffery and viserys). I don't see dany and Jon getting together for this reason.


in short good guys don't bang their relatives.


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The type argument is rather empty. She was sold to Drogo, she didn't like him for his type. She learned to love him for him because the alternative was kill herself. She chooses Daario for a variety of reasons, but not just because he's like Drogo (which he isn't really, IMO).

The type argument can really only matter if Dany and Jon have the time to develop a relationship/romance, and I don't think even the tumblr fans really think theirs would be a "loving" one. If it happens at all, it will be a political alliance. They may not work as lovers because each seems the opposite of what the other wants, but they could be fond of one another. I believe that's one of their linking themes in the R+L=J schools of thought... fondness.

It's not empty imo, because Viserys and Drogo have had a lot of impact on who Dany is today -- I'd say, it doesn't matter that Drogo wasn't her choice to begin with. She did come to love him -- he did become the center of her world for a time. That leaves its mark. And that shows in her preference of Daario over her other suitors, imo. If Jon + Dany is a political match, yes, alright it matters little. But if not -- I really don't think they'd fall in love or anything...and it is sort of what one expects to happen for Dany at some point, based on the HotU prophecy.

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I think there are several things wrong with this idea.



Firstly and foremostly whilst it is explicitly stated in ACOK that Targaryen incest is accepted because it has been part of their culture for hundreds of years it is clearly abhorrent to the rest of Westerosi society. I don't believe if Jon discovered his father was Rhaegar his morals, values and Northern cultural beliefs would suddenly turn to valyrian ones. Why on earth would this happen and why should it?



Secondly I don't believe their characters mix well at all so I don't see them 'falling in love' as many do.



Thirdly, Daenerys believes the Iron Throne is hers by right. Why should she share it with someone whose claim is in question but if real would be better than hers? By marrying him she would acknowledge his legitimacy and be essentially giving it up. The situation is no different to her marrying Aegon.




In conclusion, I can't see this happening, nor do I want it to it's too big a departure from what we know.



Edit: Just in terms of types of incest while avunculate marriages did happen in medieval times they were far less common than marrying cousins which I believe was widely accepted and happened all the time. The way I see it the relation has to be two 'places' away in the family tree in terms of genes for it to not be weird, without going directly downwards (i.e grandfather and granddaughter). For example:



brother and sister: 0 places weird


Aunt and nephew: 1 place weird


Half brother and sister: 1 place weird.


first cousins: 2 places ok


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Jaime and Cersei's incest seems to be leading to House Lannister's demise.

Dany to fall in love with Jon but Jon to stay true to his vows and/or the Starks.

I think it's more than just the incest that's leading to the Lannisters' downfall though, and brother/sister incest seems to have been working fine for the Targaryens for quite some time, apart from the occasional crazy person :p

I'm not saying I approve of Westerosi incest, and I definitely don't think Jon wouldn't have any qualms about it. I just think that the argument that 'incest is wrong' is a bad one considering what we know of this world and our own medieval society.

Oh yes, I agree, that's how I too think it'll turn out :) Daenerys is destined to fall in love with Jon, as I think each third part of the prophecy refers to him, as well as the blue rose 'filling the air with sweetness'. If that's true, than it follows that Jon will betray Daenerys 'for love', which I take to mean that he'll betray her because he doesn't love her or loves someone else better than her. This could refer to a lot of things though; the Night's Watch, one of the living Starks, Val, ...

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More to the point though -- I don't think they'd get along as lovers. Allies, maybe. Have a sort of sibling/kin dynamic, why not? But.... Jon doesn't seem Dany's type much; he has no forked beard or golden tooth; has no long, braided hair and copper skin; probably still appears quite boyish (slender build, average height + youth); lacks Daario's cockiness and arrogance; Drogo’s thirst for blood and lustiness.... he's much too serious and sullen, too. Also, the way I see it, Dany sort of has the tendency to let herself be "dominated" by men -- even when she tries to appear in control. Viserys's "education" has left its mark; and though she's trying to be a ruler/queen...and a dragon :) ; deep down I think she's still the same insecure, little girl...and Jon is really not the macho, domineering type.

We dunno what Jon will be like post stabbing. If he dies and is rezed or survives and recovers either way I believe he will be spending time with Ghost in which case Jon becomes more aggresive.

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