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Rogue Prince or King´s Brother, Part II


Jaak

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I don't understand what you are asking with "how?".

If Daemon called Viserys´ bluff and was attainted for treason, who the hell was Viserys going to send after Daemon? The only other adult dragonrider was Rhaenys, 31, on Meleys - but while she may have been brave, she was not mentioned to be openly practicing jousting, so if she declined to risk her life for her cousin who was sitting her own throne, Viserys could hardly call her a coward or a deserter for being a woman and a noncombatant. That leaves pretty much the 8 year old Rhaenyra on Syrax....

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Jaak,



I think you make to much fuzz about the dragons. They don't seem to make the Targaryens untouchable or something like that. Daemon had a really big dragon, and he was later joined by Laena and Vhagar, but they were still de facto exiles in Essos.



I guess a dragon could not protect you from the police (or the bureaucracy) of Westeros - you still have to sleep, eat, interact with other people, be part of society. If you are an outcast, then you are an outcast. And if the king wants to kill or imprison you, he just does it, dragon or no (although his thugs most likely will not forewarn you, or seize you while you hang out with your dragon).


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Jaak,

I think you make to much fuzz about the dragons. They don't seem to make the Targaryens untouchable or something like that. Daemon had a really big dragon, and he was later joined by Laena and Vhagar, but they were still de facto exiles in Essos.

I guess a dragon could not protect you from the police (or the bureaucracy) of Westeros - you still have to sleep, eat, interact with other people, be part of society. If you are an outcast, then you are an outcast. And if the king wants to kill or imprison you, he just does it, dragon or no (although his thugs most likely will not forewarn you, or seize you while you hang out with your dragon).

One dragon was the protection that sufficed for Prince Aemond, in land where he was SO outcast as to have the stunts like tables of corpses.

And Daemon had other options. Accept exile in Essos at that point - he had NOT chosen a side against Three Whores yet, so Myhsaria might introduce him to Lyseni service as a selldragon. Or employ a small retinue in Westeros who would alert him of the approach of King´s thugs, awaken him and let him mount his dragon and take flight. In fact, he was physically on Dragonstone when threatened with outlawry. Well, Targaryens had held Dragonstone for a century against the might of Stormlands and Riverlands! Daemon could have risen in open rebellion and what could Viserys do against Dragonstone? Viserys certainly would bequeath no royal navy to Aegon, so there would have been none in 105 either.

Also: when 10 year old Aegon rides Vhagar, it is for some reason made a big deal. That even Targaryen children should be afraid of old dragons, and Viserys´ parents would not have allowed him near Vhagar... that he feared capture more than Vhagar... and that he had no right to try Vhagar.

But 12 year old Laena was introduced as the rider of Vhagar with only a mention that she was "bold and adventurous". No mention when she claimed Vhagar. Age 11? 10 like Aegon? 9 or younger?

So... was it "a favour of Gods"? Or did Vhagar simply love children?

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Also... when Viserys calls "hundreds" of Lords to King´s Landing to swear fealty to Rhaenyra, the absence of Daemon is remarked on because he left rather than stay and swear.



How about Rhaenys, Laena, Laenor and Corlys?


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No.



Then Prince Daemon assembled an army of "landless adventurers and second sons", and Sea Snake sailed the Velaryon navy. It might have made sense to invite the other Westerosi navy, the Ironborn, to reave the Triarchy lands... but no mention of doing so.



Interestingly, Daemon had just sent Mysaria to Lys... and then attacked her country. Her baby had died, but she had not. It would have been obvious option for Lys to try and use her as a hostage against him.



Did Daemon extricate her from Lys again before showing his colours against Three Whores?


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Was there any mention of what the Greyjoys were doing during this war?

I think it might have been revealed in tWoIaF Westerpands reading but would.need to check. If not.it was revealed in the unofficial extract that was leaked...

Jaak;

I wondered about Mysaria and the Triarchy too. What I found equally surprising was that she sent no word to Daemon of the Triarchy supporting the Greens in tPatQ. If she was indeed the Lady Mysaria with Rhaenyra in the Red Keep, she likely was brought back from Lys earlier than the Dance - perhaps when Daemon was Kig in the Narrow.Sea?

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One dragon was the protection that sufficed for Prince Aemond, in land where he was SO outcast as to have the stunts like tables of corpses.

And Daemon had other options. Accept exile in Essos at that point - he had NOT chosen a side against Three Whores yet, so Myhsaria might introduce him to Lyseni service as a selldragon. Or employ a small retinue in Westeros who would alert him of the approach of King´s thugs, awaken him and let him mount his dragon and take flight. In fact, he was physically on Dragonstone when threatened with outlawry. Well, Targaryens had held Dragonstone for a century against the might of Stormlands and Riverlands! Daemon could have risen in open rebellion and what could Viserys do against Dragonstone? Viserys certainly would bequeath no royal navy to Aegon, so there would have been none in 105 either.

Also: when 10 year old Aegon rides Vhagar, it is for some reason made a big deal. That even Targaryen children should be afraid of old dragons, and Viserys´ parents would not have allowed him near Vhagar... that he feared capture more than Vhagar... and that he had no right to try Vhagar.

But 12 year old Laena was introduced as the rider of Vhagar with only a mention that she was "bold and adventurous". No mention when she claimed Vhagar. Age 11? 10 like Aegon? 9 or younger?

So... was it "a favour of Gods"? Or did Vhagar simply love children?

I do think that Vhagar being claimed by 2 children in a row is coincidence... Either that, or practically every Targaryen (with exceptions like Maegor who waited on purpose) claimed a dragon when he/she was a kid.

Aemond claimed Vhagar at 10, Laena certainny had claimed Vhagar by the age of 12... But looking at these ages, they are not that much older than Addam of Hull, for example.. Yet no one thinks twice about that.

As to Aemond on Vhagar during the Dance... Those whose side he was one obviously didn't try to stop him. The small folk didn't have the means to stop him. The soldiers were mostly away at war. The Blacks were hunting him, but couldn't find him.

If Daemon had been accused of treason, and had tried to use Caraxes against Viserys and his people, then be certain that all the focus would go on killing Caraxes. Dragons can be killed, and if Daemon's only way of keeping out of the hands of justice was Caraxes, than Caraxes would be attacked, though it would probably cost many lives.

Also... when Viserys calls "hundreds" of Lords to King´s Landing to swear fealty to Rhaenyra, the absence of Daemon is remarked on because he left rather than stay and swear.

How about Rhaenys, Laena, Laenor and Corlys?

Corlys would be the only one to swear... Perhaps even Rhaenys. Laenor and Laena were their children, not lords or ladies in their own right.

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she likely was brought back from Lys earlier than the Dance - perhaps when Daemon was Kig in the Narrow.Sea?

Daemon had been fighting her cuntry for three years before he became King in the Narrow Sea. Plenty of time for her to be screwed.

Attacking her cuntry was one questionable move. And the fate of his conquests...

"Westeros" was not just a continent. Many islands were included - and treated as ordinary lordships equal to those on mainland.

Bear Isle and Skagos were sworn to Winterfell, Fair Isle to Casterly Rock, Shields and Arbor to Highgarden, Greenstone and Tarth to Storm´s End, Three Sisters to Eyrie, Iron Islands and Dragonstone to Iron Throne.

And the territorial claims of the Iron Throne went beyond their power - at least Aegon II called himself King of Rhoynar despite ruling no Rhoynar.

It would have been an obvious move to treat Stepstones as another archipelago of Westeros, ruled by a Paramount Lord sworn directly to Iron Throne as in case of Iron Islands, or Prince as in case of Dragonstone.

Yet Corlys and Daemon chose to crown Daemon... while Corlys continued to hold Driftmark.

Was that a rebellion?

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Was that a rebellion?

No one sworn to the IT lives at the Stepstones... So no, I wouldn't call it a rebellion.

The Stepstones are not a part of Westeros at all.

I don't know if you've given this any thought or not, but has the Westeros realm ever invaded the mainland to the east?

There have been a few attempts to claim some of the Stepstones, a chain of large islands in the narrow sea east of Dorne and Storm's End.

If the Stepstones had been a part of Westeros, the Seven Kingdoms wouldn't have fought to gain control over them at times..

Myr and Lys are also known for fighting each other over control for the Stepstones. So if anything, I'd say the Stepstones are part of Essos.

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I do think that Vhagar being claimed by 2 children in a row is coincidence... Either that, or practically every Targaryen (with exceptions like Maegor who waited on purpose) claimed a dragon when he/she was a kid.

Yes, but most of them ride their own hatched dragonets. Joffrey had hatched Tyraxes by age 3 and was taking care of it; Rhaenyra named Syrax and flew by age 7.

A significant minority tames old dragons, though...

Aemond claimed Vhagar at 10, Laena certainny had claimed Vhagar by the age of 12...

And Helaena had claimed Dreamfyre also by the age of 12, again no mention when.

But looking at these ages, they are not that much older than Addam of Hull, for example..

Indeed - they are much younger.

Addam was 15. And 12 is widely regarded to be much younger than 15 - there is something called puberty growth spurt in between.

Yet no one thinks twice about that.

Yet Gyldayn does think twice about Aegon:

Even for a son of House Targaryen, there are always dangers in approaching a strange dragon, particularly an old, bad-tempered dragon who has recently lost her rider. His father and mother would never allow him to go near Vhagar, Aemond knew. So he made certain they did not know,

So, a 10 year old boy would never be allowed near Vhagar by his parents, but girl under 12?

As to Aemond on Vhagar during the Dance... Those whose side he was one obviously didn't try to stop him.

No such anywhere nearby. Aemond´s army found no Greens supporters, everyone against them and willing to scorch their lands to starve them.

The small folk didn't have the means to stop him. The soldiers were mostly away at war.

Just 9000 Black at Tumbleton - much of them retreating Reach forces. There should have been plenty of Riverlands ground forces hunting for Aemond.

The Blacks were hunting him, but couldn't find him.

Not even with two dragons... let alone everyone on ground hating Aemond.

If Daemon had been accused of treason, and had tried to use Caraxes against Viserys and his people, then be certain that all the focus would go on killing Caraxes. Dragons can be killed, and if Daemon's only way of keeping out of the hands of justice was Caraxes, than Caraxes would be attacked, though it would probably cost many lives.

Aemond and Vhagar avoided being attacked for several weeks.

And if keeping out of hands of justice alone was the issue, then from Dragonstone flying over the Narrow Sea to Pentos is a matter for a single day, while Wall and the wildings beyond should be reachable in a week or so, and Dorne in a couple of days. The world was open for Caraxes and the couple on dragonback, and there was little and less the people on ground could do about that.

Corlys would be the only one to swear... Perhaps even Rhaenys. Laenor and Laena were their children, not lords or ladies in their own right.

Yet Laenor had been a candidate at the Great Council of 101.

Rhaenys had been bypassed by grandfather´s word in 92, and outvoted in 101. Getting her to come out to support Rhaenyra in 105 would have done a lot to prop up Viserys as well.

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Yet Laenor had been a candidate at the Great Council of 101.

Rhaenys had been bypassed by grandfather´s word in 92, and outvoted in 101. Getting her to come out to support Rhaenyra in 105 would have done a lot to prop up Viserys as well.

Being considered as heir to the throne has got nothing to do with having to swear fealthy. The Lords had to swear fealthy, and their wives perhaps as well, but as Jason Lannister points out in tpatq, he never had to swear an oath.. He was a child at the time. As were Laenor and Laena.

Comming back to Daemon for a quick second, and whether or not his attacks against the Stepstones could be considered a rebellion, I just read this:

But it was not rebellion that the rogue prince had in mind; he saw another path to power.

The Stepstones, the chain of rocky islands between Dorne and the Disputed Lands of Essos, had long been a haunt of outlaws, exiles, wreckers, and pirates. ....

Daemon wasn't plotting a rebellion, but decided to go for the Stepstones instead. So I guess the Stepstones aren't considered part of the 7K.

You are right about Helaena having claimed a dragon by the age of 12. We don't know how many bigger dragons there were... Jaehaerys and Alysanne had multiple children, and multiple siblings as well. If anything, the World Book might give a clue about their dragons. But from comments from Ran, about the end of the Dance, there were only 4 dragons left, one whom we haven't even seen yet. So I guess that there were simply no big dragons left in most cases, but there were eggs available, and thus those were given to the children.

As to Aemond, it is quite possible that he had an egg which hatched, but the hatchling died shortly after birth, similar to what happened to Rhaena of Pentos. The same could have happened for Helaena, which is why both of them claimed older dragons. The eggs of Aegon and Daeron hatched healthy dragons, then.

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Daemon did not actually attack Lys, did he? He fought with the Three Daughters over the Stepstones - islands, the Triarchy recently annexed - Tyrosh is based on one of Stepstones, but I guess Daemon did either never attack it, or was never able to conquer it. There is no talk whatsoever that he and Corlys tried to land on the Disputed Lands or attack Myr directly, nor did is anyone mentioning an attack on Lys.


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Being considered as heir to the throne has got nothing to do with having to swear fealthy. The Lords had to swear fealthy,

And Daemon was not a Lord. We even do not know if he was Lord Protector of Runestone or merely lady Rhea´s husband without being a "Lord Protector" for it - his Lady Royce was a healthy adult and might have ruled as a Lady without sharing a lordship. Was Lord Petyr Baelish the Lord Protector of Vale in Lysa´s lifetime, or merely Lord of Sheepshit and Harrenhal?

Did the Bronze Bitch travel to King´s Landing to swear fealty to Rhaenyra? Daemon´s accession would make her Queen (Consort) unless Daemon would divorce her as soon as he was the King in his own right.

Rhaenys being considered the rightful heir to the throne by many could have done a lot to persuade her supporters to swear to Rhaenyra instead. That´s why she mattered.

Comming back to Daemon for a quick second, and whether or not his attacks against the Stepstones could be considered a rebellion, I just read this:

Daemon wasn't plotting a rebellion, but decided to go for the Stepstones instead. So I guess the Stepstones aren't considered part of the 7K.

But Dorne WAS considered part of 7K. If a Marcher Lord successfully conquered a piece of Dorne, it was not rebellion against Iron Throne either - it was a Marcher Lord doing his job well.

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Was there any mention of what the Greyjoys were doing during this war?

From the Westerlands reading (http://www.historyofwesteros.com/concarolinas-westerlands-reading/):

"When Viserys I ascended, he made Jason’s twin brother Tyland his master of ships. Under Aegon II, he became master of coin. Tyland brought Jason into the war on Aegon’s side, and hid the gold from the treasury.

The Red Kraken, Lord Dalton Greyjoy, fell upon the Westerlands when Jason had marched, causing great damage."

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But Dorne WAS considered part of 7K. If a Marcher Lord successfully conquered a piece of Dorne, it was not rebellion against Iron Throne either - it was a Marcher Lord doing his job well.

We weren't talking about Dorne, we were talking about the Stepstones..

Let me say it in other words: Viserys was not King of the Stepstones. The Stepstones were not part of his jurisdiction. So Daemon fighting a war to gain control over the Stepstones was not a rebellion against Viserys.

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We weren't talking about Dorne, we were talking about the Stepstones..

Let me say it in other words: Viserys was not King of the Stepstones. The Stepstones were not part of his jurisdiction.

By what rule?

Let´s recall the words:

...proclaiming him Aegon of House Targaryen, Second of His Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm. His mother...

The official title of Aegon II, at least, makes him Lord of Seven Kingdoms - but then does not list them, let alone specify their borders.

Nor does he list himself as King of Ironmen, or of Skaggs - yet he claims to demand their allegiance. He is not King of Valyrians eiter, but this does not excempt Velaryons and Celtigars from allegiance.

Viserys was King of Stepstones under at least 2 theories:

he could include Stepstones along with mainland Dorne, the clansmen of Mountains of Moon and the North beyond the Wall as disloyal parts of "Seven Kingdoms", and the Crows ranging north of the Wall were surely not thereby rebelling against Viserys

and he was King of the Andals, which most of the second sons clearly were and remained wherever they went, so he could claim to be the King of any place conquered by Andals, whether in Westeros, Essos, Summer Isles or Ulthos.

Under these theories, between 106 and 109 the Andal soldiers living and fighting on Stepstones could call themselves loyal subjects of Westeros and regard Corlys and Daemon as Westerosi Lords owing to bend the knee to Viserys at King´s Landing or Dragonstone.

Corlys´ act to crown Daemon contradicted that interpretation, and could be interpreted as rebellion, in a way that sailing for conquest in 106 could not.

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