GRRM is a bad writer?

[kiasyd]

I'm a writer and have read literally everything of note, I'm classically educated, conspicuously bad prose hurts me to read - and if we're just talking prose quality and dialogue, imo, Martin's good enough. I've never been taken out of one of his ASOIAF books by the prose being bad, and the only really bad misuse of a word I've ever noticed is his insistence on using "wroth" (an adjective) to mean "wrath" (a noun), which may well just be a deliberate archaism rather than an error.

So - he'll do, as a pure writer of prose.

That said, even if he were a poor writer, it wouldn't be fatal or undermine anything, necessarily. Many great genre writers are either terrible or barely passable stylists. Philip K Dick is a great writer - couldn't write a lick. Horrible, horrible prose. Lovecraft? Terrible prose, and the worst dialogue skills of any major writer in history. Stephen King? Not so good.

Not all these guys can be Ray Bradbury or Alfred Bester, where you get the plus imagination and the plus style. But Martin is better than most. You don't need to feel ashamed for liking him.

Interesting summary. What's your take on Neil Gaiman's prose? I'm not English speaking native, even though I read most books in English (if the original is in English), and to my (limited) perception, Gaiman writes high quality material.

In any case, I particularly enjoy GRRM archaisms - "wroth" being a good example - and find it quite amusing all the euphemisms, parallels, foreshadowings and alliteration that he uses... It strikes me as high quality prose.

[Ygritte]

So much this. I love Fevre Dream, and his short stories are, IMHO, amazing.

My favorite GRRM passage is actually from the end of Fevre Dream where he's describing the Mississippi River in the different seasons of the year. He actually made me look at a geographic feature I grew up right next to in a new way.

[Ygritte]

Interesting summary. What's your take on Neil Gaiman's prose? I'm not English speaking native, even though I read most books in English (if the original is in English), and to my (limited) perception, Gaiman writes high quality material.

I love Gaiman's prose, and in his case I absolutely prefer the short stories to the novels. He's brilliant in these tiny little gems of stories, and sometimes when given 800 pages, he kind of lets the story peter out. Though I did love Stardust.

[kiasyd]

I love Gaiman's prose, and in his case I absolutely prefer the short stories to the novels. He's brilliant in these tiny little gems of stories, and sometimes when given 800 pages, he kind of lets the story peter out. Though I did love Stardust.

I enjoy everything from him - from short stories, to American Gods, and particularly the comics (Sandman and Books of Magic).

[BastardlyRock]

My favorite GRRM passage is actually from the end of Fevre Dream where he's describing the Mississippi River in the different seasons of the year. He actually made me look at a geographic feature I grew up right next to in a new way.

Thank you for reminding me, that passage is beautiful. Bringing it back around to asoiaf, for me I knew I was in love at the end of Jaime's rescue of Brienne, when he answered "I dreamed of you." I remember wondering how those four lines could hit me like they did, it was captivating.

[Graven]

He's not a bad writer at all.

He creates very good characters

He has a lot of imagination to create the whole world surrounding ASOIAF

He has a simple narrative for a very complicated story.

He has flaws, though, no body is perfect. He repeats too much the same arcs sometimes, and he overuses certain tropes.

What he being fat has to do with it? JK

Anyway i'm not the ultimate reader, but as far as i can say, i really like to read him, the only thing that i'm still wondering is that if he will manage to properly tie every sub-plot he started, i hope he doesn't pull a Lost and tie things in a convoluted way.

[Ygritte]

Thank you for reminding me, that passage is beautiful. Bringing it back around to asoiaf, for me I knew I was in love at the end of Jaime's rescue of Brienne, when he answered "I dreamed of you." I remember wondering how those four lines could hit me like they did, it was captivating.

And I could read his castle descriptions all day. He always manages to bring it to life in my head, as well as say something about the people living there and drop in a chunk of history in a non-annoying way.

[James Arryn]

I think he is terrible at writing sex and jokes. Almost no one is good at the former.

I think he had some issues with plot and his themes seem ephemeral or more a conversation about/comment on his own medium. I think his world-building is hit and miss. I think his frog-boiling is in danger of becoming paradoxical.

But he's great at character and an absolute fucking genius when it comes to realizing 'secondary' characters.

[SerArthurHeath]

When people say bad writer they generally refer to the quality of prose. This was adequate in the first 3 books, some good scenes, some poor, then much much much better in Feast to the degree of reaching good though not truly great.

[The Red Haired Viper]

I teach High School English for a living (not that this makes me an expert), but I am definitely well read. I think GRRM is a good writer. He certainly is not one of the greats, but he has some very nice prose, and creates extremely realistic and memorable characters. He definitely is far better than most in the genre.

[Ali Colak]

I think some people dislike the emphasis he puts on creating the environment for the scene. I got that idea from a couple of comments on the boards, and his own introduction to a feast of ice and fire.

I guess the issue of whether one considers him to be a good writer depends on what one looks for in a writer. I see GRRM's style as being Lucid and (when necessary) elegant and above all, rich in detail; all of which ar qualities I value in a story. The last two books have been a bit of a drag, which I think is one of the reasons for the increased criticism.

[Klavpod]

Is Martin a bad writer? I say, no. Not a chance. The fact that his work has inspired and compelled us to spend so much of our time sifting through his prose, rereading it, dreaming up theories and discussing and debating his every word proves it.

Those of us who say otherwise should look for another explanation for getting so wrapped up in the work of a bad writer.

I think because we are so involved in exploring his every last detail, we tend to hold him to an impossibly high standard.

[BastardlyRock]

When people say bad writer they generally refer to the quality of prose. This was adequate in the first 3 books, some good scenes, some poor, then much much much better in Feast to the degree of reaching good though not truly great.

Lovin' the Feast appreciation :D

[James Arryn]

Not joking, I for a moment thought we were referencing A Moveable...

[JonisHenryTudor]

I've seen several posters make the comment recently that GRRM is a bad writer. Comments often come in the form of "I love the story, but the man is not a good writer." Can someone shed some light on this for me? I'm an English major, so it's not like I haven't read other literature. I'm familiar with the classics as well as some modern day authors generally held in high regard, and yet I can't get behind the idea that GRRM created this wonderful story and these beautiful characters yet himself is a poor author. Some of his prose is genuinely beautiful and I could read a few passages over and over till the day I die. Are there many of you out there who feel he's not a good writer, or is it the minority?

To be honest, some of the chapters come off as amateurish. Also let's not forget that GRRM did not create this story from scratch, he has essentially took a historical event and turned it into fantasy. Yes he did bring several characters to life, and no dragons and direwolves were not involved in the Wars of the Roses; but the basic outline for a story was there for him to utilize. Now don't get me wrong AoIaF is my favorite series from the genre (aside from the King Killer Chronicles); however, I came to the series because I have a strange love affair with the English Wars of the Roses--not the other way around. I just returned to GoT about 4 months ago and was surprised a how bad some of the chapters were written.

In the end, prose are meaningless if the story is garbage. He tells a brilliant story with more twists and turns than one could imagine. For me, at least, I could care less where he ranks among writers, because he is a in a league of his own in terms of story telling. I know I will be torched for this, but I find Tolkien to be "garbage". I have used every ounce of my energy in an attempt to read LotR, but I just cannot force myself through it. I actually like Jackson's interpretation better...... I think there is a huge difference from story telling and stringing words together in a "beautiful" way.

IMO I think Patrick Rothfuss is a far superior author, but that is my opinion.

I don't have an issue with his usage of wroth.

[JonisHenryTudor]

..... this was an accident....

[sj4iy]

I'm a bit classical literature buff, and I would say I'm a bit of a snob when it comes to which books I read. The one thing I can't stand above all else is bad writing.

GRRM is not a bad writer at all. He's actually a pretty good writer, and his prose is very easy to read. However, his storytelling ability is not as good as his writing ability. He gets lost in world building and keeps adding more and more characters that may or may not be important to the story...and he does this to the point that his story becomes stretched too thin and the reader can get lost or lose interest. This wasn't as much of a problem in the first three books, but the last two were especially guilty of this.

If I could rework his stories, I would do the following:

Cut down on the number of POV characters

Recombine books 4 and 5 and cut out as much of the useless stuff as possible

Shorten the chapters somewhat, because they keep growing longer and longer as the books go on

I think there's a difference between bad writer and bad storyteller. A good writer can get away with telling bad stories as long as the story is well told; but if a good storyteller can't write well, then it will mar the story itself.

[sj4iy]

To be honest, some of the chapters come off as amateurish. Also let's not forget that GRRM did not create this story from scratch, he has essentially took a historical event and turned it into fantasy. Yes he did bring several characters to life, and no dragons and direwolves were not involved in the Wars of the Roses; but the basic outline for a story was there for him to utilize. Now don't get me wrong AoIaF is my favorite series from the genre (aside from the King Killer Chronicles); however, I came to the series because I have a strange love affair with the English Wars of the Roses--not the other way around. I just returned to GoT about 4 months ago and was surprised a how bad some of the chapters were written.

In the end, prose are meaningless if the story is garbage. He tells a brilliant story with more twists and turns than one could imagine. For me, at least, I could care less where he ranks among writers, because he is a in a league of his own in terms of story telling. I know I will be torched for this, but I find Tolkien to be "garbage". I have used every ounce of my energy in an attempt to read LotR, but I just cannot force myself through it. I actually like Jackson's interpretation better...... I think there is a huge difference from story telling and stringing words together in a "beautiful" way.

IMO I think Patrick Rothfuss is a far superior author, but that is my opinion.

I don't have an issue with his usage of wroth.

I don't care for Tolkien myself. My favorite fantasy author as it stands right now is Terry Pratchett, because I think his writing style and storytelling are impeccable.

[Otto Martell]

I'm a bit classical literature buff, and I would say I'm a bit of a snob when it comes to which books I read. The one thing I can't stand above all else is bad writing.

GRRM is not a bad writer at all. He's actually a pretty good writer, and his prose is very easy to read. However, his storytelling ability is not as good as his writing ability. He gets lost in world building and keeps adding more and more characters that may or may not be important to the story...and he does this to the point that his story becomes stretched too thin and the reader can get lost or lose interest. This wasn't as much of a problem in the first three books, but the last two were especially guilty of this.

If I could rework his stories, I would do the following:

Cut down on the number of POV characters

Recombine books 4 and 5 and cut out as much of the useless stuff as possible

Shorten the chapters somewhat, because they keep growing longer and longer as the books go on

I think there's a difference between bad writer and bad storyteller. A good writer can get away with telling bad stories as long as the story is well told; but if a good storyteller can't write well, then it will mar the story itself.

This.

Moreover, my personal impression is that GRRM tries too hard sometimes: both his prose and his storytelling are grand, "epic" in the sense that they do not aim at the average (Bernard Cornwell comes to mind), but his grasp of his own intents can be fragile every now and then. The abundance of certain expressions and words in specific books, the somewhat inconsistency in the usage of certain terms, a few aspects of the convoluted plot, the waste or misplace of a some secondary characters… all of these undermine, even if in a very subjective and personal level, the grandiosity of his prose and story.

By no means I’m saying that GRRM is not good (he might be my second or third favorite author, to be honest), but I can see why some people would find problems with his literary aesthetics.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I don't care for Tolkien myself. My favorite fantasy author as it stands right now is Terry Pratchett, because I think his writing style and storytelling are impeccable.

Really? I have been leaning to give him a shot. Suggestions?