Dany is going to conquer most of known Essos

[Steelborn]

3. Volantis is already prophesized to burn if they declare war on Dany. Guess what, they did. So expect their destruction as well.

Where can I see this? I don't remember. If that's true, I think she'll burn Qarth, Volatins and maybe Slaver's Bay before going home or wherever home is.

[The Imperator]

That is absolutely, 100% not her intention, and we know that for sure because we have been reading her mind right straight along.

It's a safe assumption that she is going to learn from her experience and change her ways. We know this because that's what fiction protagonists do, especially those who start out as 13-year-olds who are immediately confronted with wildly complex responsibilities to gather experience from.

Besides . . . she doesn't have Aegon's firepower. She has 3 adolescent dragons. She is not capable of burning castles down by herself.

The obvious lesson for her to have learned in Slaver's Bay is that she needs to incorporate local power structures to rule. If she actually learned that, then the is going to use her Westeros connections (including Tyrion) to make some contacts before she arrives. If she is going to do this conquest right, she wants to make as much of it as possible political and then fire and blood the uncooperative hard cases - not everybody.

lol We're talking about an author that's known for evading tropes and being unpredictable.

[Hodor's Dragon]

lol We're talking about an author that's known for evading tropes and being unpredictable.

In interesting ways. Having a protagonist stay exactly the same from start to finish doesn't seem very interesting to me.

Nor very believable. Dany is obviously whip-smart, and starts confronting major complications at age 13. It's not believable that she wouldn't learn anything, especially since we see her frequently evaluating her past actions.

I'm not saying she's certain to figure everything out and do everything perfectly, not by a long shot. She still doesn't know the answers; she'll just try out different hypotheses.* But I would put her continuing to do everything the way she did it from the start is one of the least likely outcomes. I would bet big money against her doing that.**

*My money says, though, that when push comes to shove, she will come through. That's the hallmark of her story: she screws up all the time, but when it really, really counts, like walking into the pyre, sending the riders out from the ruined city in the desert, picking the right doors in Qarth, or using the whip on Drogon on the fighting pit, she always gets it right.

**I really would, but feel free to consider that as a mere rhetorical embellishment, because I won't bet with you or any other reader. IOW, I would bet big money on it, but not with somebody I don't know on the internet.

[The Imperator]

In interesting ways. Having a protagonist stay exactly the same from start to finish doesn't seem very interesting to me.

Nor very believable. Dany is obviously whip-smart, and starts confronting major complications at age 13. It's not believable that she wouldn't learn anything, especially since we see her frequently evaluating her past actions.

I'm not saying she's certain to figure everything out and do everything perfectly, not by a long shot. She still doesn't know the answers; she'll just try out different hypotheses.* But I would put her continuing to do everything the way she did it from the start is one of the least likely outcomes. I would bet big money against her doing that.**

*My money says, though, that when push comes to shove, she will come through. That's the hallmark of her story: she screws up all the time, but when it really, really counts, like walking into the pyre, sending the riders out from the ruined city in the desert, picking the right doors in Qarth, or using the whip on Drogon on the fighting pit, she always gets it right.

**I really would, but feel free to consider that as a mere rhetorical embellishment, because I won't bet with you or any other reader. IOW, I would bet big money on it, but not with somebody I don't know on the internet.

What Dany could have "learned" (loosely speaking) was that she should just give up ruling and simply start filling the role of a conquerer, the words of Targaryen personified (Fire and Blood). Oh yeah, and Dany is most certainly not "whip-smart." She out-tricked a few idiots but "whip-smart"? Hardly.

[sj4iy]

In interesting ways. Having a protagonist stay exactly the same from start to finish doesn't seem very interesting to me.

Agree with this, but the real problem with Dany is that she had such a great high for the first few books, then took a dip and has been in a slump for a while. Hopefully she'll get out of that in the next book or it will be very, very boring.

Nor very believable. Dany is obviously whip-smart, and starts confronting major complications at age 13. It's not believable that she wouldn't learn anything, especially since we see her frequently evaluating her past actions.

She's smart, but that doesn't stop her from making dumb decisions, which is why she's in the mess she's in in Meereen in the first place. She's willfully ignorant about some things, too. She's so worried about prophecies and becoming like her crazy relatives that she won't listen to what anyone has to say about what really happened during Robert's Rebellion.

I'm not saying she's certain to figure everything out and do everything perfectly, not by a long shot. She still doesn't know the answers; she'll just try out different hypotheses.* But I would put her continuing to do everything the way she did it from the start is one of the least likely outcomes. I would bet big money against her doing that.**

I think something will change, but I couldn't speculate on what.

*My money says, though, that when push comes to shove, she will come through. That's the hallmark of her story: she screws up all the time, but when it really, really counts, like walking into the pyre, sending the riders out from the ruined city in the desert, picking the right doors in Qarth, or using the whip on Drogon on the fighting pit, she always gets it right.

You mean "she screws up all the time, but when it really, really counts, she gets lucky." She's not the only character with plot armor (Tyrion probably being the worst, then Dany, then Jon).

[Veltigar]

In interesting ways. Having a protagonist stay exactly the same from start to finish doesn't seem very interesting to me.

Nor very believable. Dany is obviously whip-smart, and starts confronting major complications at age 13. It's not believable that she wouldn't learn anything, especially since we see her frequently evaluating her past actions.

I'm not saying she's certain to figure everything out and do everything perfectly, not by a long shot. She still doesn't know the answers; she'll just try out different hypotheses.* But I would put her continuing to do everything the way she did it from the start is one of the least likely outcomes. I would bet big money against her doing that.**

:agree:

[Hodor's Dragon]

What Dany could have "learned" (loosely speaking) was that she should just give up ruling and simply start filling the role of a conquerer, the words of Targaryen personified (Fire and Blood). Oh yeah, and Dany is most certainly not "whip-smart." She out-tricked a few idiots but "whip-smart"? Hardly.

As a 14- or 15-year-old girl, she conquered Astapor virtually single-handedly. At Meereen, she came up with the idea of stripping down the ships to use their prows as rams and lumber as siege equipment when none of her military leaders had any idea how to besiege the city. Likewise, she designed the battle plan at Yunkai - not her generals - including the last-minute improvisation with the Stormcrows. At the House of the Undying, with her life at stake, she feel for zero of the extremely convincing tricks, including moving a heavy door to find the proper exit door hidden behind it. She has a brilliant touch at motivating people, both her friends and her enemies, to do and think what she wants them to do or think, including making sure that her enemies always remember that she's "only a girl" and not to be taken seriously.

Yet readers tend to forget that. She is not Tywin Lannister who has been leading military campaigns and ruling his house for decades and should be expected to know up from down by now, she is an adolescent girl who apparently has no education other than what she got at home from Willem Darry and Viserys. Imagine what she could do with a little training! Imagine what she will do now that she has a little experience! Lighting a continent-wide fire of rebellion against slavery could be just the beginning. . . .

[OldGimletEye]

As a 14- or 15-year-old girl, she conquered Astapor virtually single-handedly. At Meereen, she came up with the idea of stripping down the ships to use their prows as rams and lumber as siege equipment when none of her military leaders had any idea how to besiege the city. Likewise, she designed the battle plan at Yunkai - not her generals - including the last-minute improvisation with the Stormcrows. At the House of the Undying, with her life at stake, she feel for zero of the extremely convincing tricks, including moving a heavy door to find the proper exit door hidden behind it. She has a brilliant touch at motivating people, both her friends and her enemies, to do and think what she wants them to do or think, including making sure that her enemies always remember that she's "only a girl" and not to be taken seriously.

Dany isn't exactly a first rate intellect. When she starts her war in Slaver's Bay, she has no idea of what that really entails. At both Yunkai and Astapor, Dany wins by using her stock-in-trade, which is fucking over her enemies during a negotation. Neither battles are examples of military brilliance. At some point she might actually run into an enemy commander that won't fall for that bullshit. And she might actually run into an enemy force that keeps better field security. Also, her tactical deployment at Yunkai is rather strange (thirty Dothraki against 4,000 infantry? fucking really? and wonder how it's going to work out for her when in later battles when she sends the unsullied on flanking operations.)

At Mereen, Dany hasn't made any plans to take the city. She has converstation about seige operations the day her army arrives. It's shocking really. And it makes both Barristan and Jorah look like idiots too for not bringing it up earlier (maybe because Dany never told them what she planned). That is not the kind of planning ability that inspires confidence. At Mereen, had the sewers not existed, Dany and her army would have been fucked.

Dany at the spur of the moment can sometimes be clever. But, she isn't very good at planning. Nor does she do a good job at really understanding a complex situation before she acts.

Yet readers tend to forget that. She is not Tywin Lannister who has been leading military campaigns and ruling his house for decades and should be expected to know up from down by now, she is an adolescent girl who apparently has no education other than what she got at home from Willem Darry and Viserys. Imagine what she could do with a little training! Imagine what she will do now that she has a little experience! Lighting a continent-wide fire of rebellion against slavery could be just the beginning. . . .

No she isn't. I wouldn't expect to her be. I don't believe people are just born military geniuses. Learning how to lead men actually takes time and effort. And I doubt that "just a little training" is going to turn Dany into a Marshall Turenne. Dany is going to need to a whole lot of training before she becomes a Trajan.

[Ghosts Lunch]

As a general principle I have wondered if her arc and her time in Slavers Bay (very close to Old Valyria) has much to do with re-forging some of the old empire despite all the talk of Westeros

I do wonder if the Doom of Old Valyria will be tempered once again by the end of it all and everything will be habitable again

Frankly I wonder how fleshed out a lot of stuff is in ADWD and AFfC in particular, how the culmination of everyones arc can be crammed into two more books. WoW and ADoS will have to be pretty fast-paced and intense like ASoS was I guess

EDIT: By "Going home" I suspect she will either go to the red door in Braavos or by the end of the book she will have begun a reconquest of Westeros by taking Dragonstone

Maybe she will take over much of the Dothraki, when I was reading about Khal Pono etc in AFfC I has been thinking that given there is no slave trade anymore they were actually going to sack Slavers Bay, and that was the way in which the Dothraki come back in "a big way" but I guess we'll see

[Hodor's Dragon]

Dany isn't exactly a first rate intellect. When she starts her war in Slaver's Bay, she has no idea of what that really entails. At both Yunkai and Astapor, Dany wins by using her stock-in-trade, which is fucking over her enemies during a negotation. Neither battles are examples of military brilliance. At some point she might actually run into an enemy commander that won't fall for that bullshit. And she might actually run into an enemy force that keeps better field security. Also, her tactical deployment at Yunkai is rather strange (thirty Dothraki against 4,000 infantry? fucking really? and wonder how it's going to work out for her when in later battles when she sends the unsullied on flanking operations.)

At Mereen, Dany hasn't made any plans to take the city. She has converstation about seige operations the day her army arrives. It's shocking really. And it makes both Barristan and Jorah look like idiots too for not bringing it up earlier (maybe because Dany never told them what she planned). That is not the kind of planning ability that inspires confidence. At Mereen, had the sewers not existed, Dany and her army would have been fucked.

Dany at the spur of the moment can sometimes be clever. But, she isn't very good at planning. Nor does she do a good job at really understanding a complex situation before she acts.

No she isn't. I wouldn't expect to her be. I don't believe people are just born military geniuses. Learning how to lead men actually takes time and effort. And I doubt that "just a little training" is going to turn Dany into a Marshall Turenne. Dany is going to need to a whole lot of training before she becomes a Trajan.

I'm a low-grade amateur military history buff, but I've yet to see a battle report that couldn't be Monday-morning quarterbacked. That's why analysis of military leaders has to lead with results, not with whether they were achieved in the manner you deem appropriate. As for the results here? Her battle plans, her victories. Doesn't that strike you as an unusual accomplishment for a tween girl with no military experience? Nobody else has been out there conquering Slavers' Bay.

I double-super-secret guarantee you, if a girl her age did that in the real world she would be hailed far and wide and you would be hearing the words "military genius." And all she had when Viserys and Illyrio basically sold her into slavery was a nice dress to wear at her wedding.

[OldGimletEye]

I'm a low-grade amateur military history buff, but I've yet to see a battle report that couldn't be Monday-morning quarterbacked. That's why analysis of military leaders has to lead with results, not with whether they were achieved in the manner you deem appropriate. As for the results here? Her battle plans, her victories. Doesn't that strike you as an unusual accomplishment for a tween girl with no military experience? Nobody else has been out there conquering Slavers' Bay.

Uh, yeah, whatever. A battle or military campaign can be brilliantly fought and still lost. Rommel eventually lost in North Africa. Hannibal ultimately lost, but he is still regarded as one of the finest military commanders ever. So did Napoleon. Sure results matter. But they are not the only thing, when assesing a commanders performance. I am sure most students of military history just don't consider whether a commander won or lost, but actually look at their actual decision making processes given their resource constraints and strategic objectives. It isn't usually considered "Monday Morning Quaterbacking".

The argument that only results really matter is akin to claiming somebody is a great heavy weight boxer just because they beat up a couple of old people, at a nursing home, in a fist fight.

I double-super-secret guarantee you, if a girl her age did that in the real world she would be hailed far and wide and you would be hearing the words "military genius." And all she had when Viserys and Illyrio basically sold her into slavery was a nice dress to wear at her wedding.

I don't know, if a 15 year old girl had Panzer Corps, at her disposal, and used it to defeat the local boxing club, she might not be considered such a military genius.

[The Imperator]

As a 14- or 15-year-old girl, she conquered Astapor virtually single-handedly. At Meereen, she came up with the idea of stripping down the ships to use their prows as rams and lumber as siege equipment when none of her military leaders had any idea how to besiege the city. Likewise, she designed the battle plan at Yunkai - not her generals - including the last-minute improvisation with the Stormcrows. At the House of the Undying, with her life at stake, she feel for zero of the extremely convincing tricks, including moving a heavy door to find the proper exit door hidden behind it. She has a brilliant touch at motivating people, both her friends and her enemies, to do and think what she wants them to do or think, including making sure that her enemies always remember that she's "only a girl" and not to be taken seriously.

Yet readers tend to forget that. She is not Tywin Lannister who has been leading military campaigns and ruling his house for decades and should be expected to know up from down by now, she is an adolescent girl who apparently has no education other than what she got at home from Willem Darry and Viserys. Imagine what she could do with a little training! Imagine what she will do now that she has a little experience! Lighting a continent-wide fire of rebellion against slavery could be just the beginning. . . .

lol She conquered Astapor because the idiots there were dumb enough to give her an army of Unsullied in exchange for some untamed dragon without ever thinking that she might turn those soldiers on them. Also, at Meereen, all of her military commanders had suddenly turned stupid so she could bring forth something that any 5th grader could easily bring up. Same thing with Yunkai. She was lucky to have her dragons at the House of the Undying. Big deal. Her "brilliant touch" at motivating people comes from her dragons. lol Yeah, that "brilliant touch" sure helped her in bringing control to Meereen. Oh wait...

rofl Experience. Because her "experience" in Meereen couldn't possibly lead her to decide that she's not a good ruler and to opt for a more destructive approach to her conquests, maybe raise Meereen to the ground?

[Hodor's Dragon]

lol She conquered Astapor because the idiots there were dumb enough to give her an army of Unsullied in exchange for some untamed dragon without ever thinking that she might turn those soldiers on them. Also, at Meereen, all of her military commanders had suddenly turned stupid so she could bring forth something that any 5th grader could easily bring up. Same thing with Yunkai. She was lucky to have her dragons at the House of the Undying. Big deal. Her "brilliant touch" at motivating people comes from her dragons. lol Yeah, that "brilliant touch" sure helped her in bringing control to Meereen. Oh wait...

rofl Experience. Because her "experience" in Meereen couldn't possibly lead her to decide that she's not a good ruler and to opt for a more destructive approach to her conquests, maybe raise Meereen to the ground?

So she's just been really lucky, that's what you're saying? Funny how nobody else gets that kind of luck.

I didn't realize Meereen was a subterranean city. . . .

[The Imperator]

So she's just been really lucky, that's what you're saying? Funny how nobody else gets that kind of luck.

I didn't realize Meereen was a subterranean city. . . .

lol "Raise to the ground" as in destroy. Don't be so literal.

Also, yes, for the most part, she has just been really lucky. That's partly what makes her character boring.

[OldGimletEye]

lol "Raise to the ground" as an destroy. Don't be so literal.

Also, yes, for the most part, she has just been really lucky. That's partly what makes her character boring.

Here is were we disagee a bit. I actually find Dany to be a hugely fascinating character. I think she is getting all these armies and power for a reason. And I don't think it's going to be the glorious affair some people think.

[Dead Wolf]

This would be fucking awesome. Please let it happen George

[Hodor's Dragon]

lol "Raise to the ground" as in destroy. Don't be so literal.

Also, yes, for the most part, she has just been really lucky. That's partly what makes her character boring.

r-a-z-e

My apologies, I'm an ex-English teacher, can't overlook the kind of opportunity that "raise to the ground" presents. . . .

[The Imperator]

r-a-z-e

My apologies, I'm an ex-English teacher, can't overlook the kind of opportunity that "raise to the ground" presents. . . .

There's indeed a chance that Daenerys will raise it to the ground.

[Hodor's Dragon]

There's indeed a chance that Daenerys will raise it to the ground.

So it is subterranean, then. I didn't even know Daenerys had an engineering background, but then again I didn't know she was into military science until she started campaigning.

[The Imperator]

So it is subterranean, then. I didn't even know Daenerys had an engineering background, but then again I didn't know she was into military science until she started campaigning.

lol Looks like we have a spelling Nazi over here.

Also, you're confusing military science with plot gifts, something that Dany seems to have in abundance. Also, dude, do you even read the books? Meereen above ground rofl. Too bad that city has been turned into turd since Dany arrived.