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Ned - really that politically inept?


Charles Calthrop

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Yes, he is, and I say that as a fan of his.



Well let me be a bit more nuanced. He knew what he *had* to do. He just couldn't bring himself to do it. Less inept, more honor bound and naive. This has been hashed and rehashed a dozen times, so I won't go into details. However we know he's not a complete idiot as he's willing to essentially bribe the GC to help what he feels is the rightful claim.


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People love to bash Ned and praise Tywin Lannister because the Lannisters had the upper hand for a while, but Tywin's victories were just as pyrrhic as Robb Stark's and now he is just as dead as Ned and Robb. Littlefinger is still "winning" the Game of Thrones but that won't last either. Contrary to what Cersei says, you don't win. You die. The Game kills all players, The only way to win is to avoid playing. Ned knew that, but let Catelyn talk him into going to King's Landing anyway. Once he was there he didn't stand a chance. If he had won against the Lannisters, Littlefinger would have spun another intrigue to bring him down.


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I honestly think people assume naivety in Ned that IMO isn't necessarily there. Honour, like courage and honesty, only qualifies as itself when it conflicts with self-interest. I don't think he chose to warn Cersei as a man certain it wouldn't come with any risk. I think he chose to warn her despite the risk.

Additionally, we see in his efforts to get his family out of KL that he absolutely knew he was in danger and that not everything was within his control. I think he was quite prepared to risk his own life and even die if it meant retaining who he was. I don't think that's naivety or ignorance of the harsh realities of life. This man had seen wars and horrors and lost many people he cared for to cruelty and injustice and the whims of fate. And I never got the sense he felt the master of all things when dealing with LF; he knew what murky waters he was wading in.

The only thing I think he failed to account for was the incomplete control he would have over reducing the risk to just being his alone. I think he felt in control of that aspect because no one but those close to him knew the timing of his plans to get hus family out of KL, and without that he still had the upper hand. I think Sansa was the one thing that caught him completely flat-footed. I don't think he thought the danger to his loved ones could come from his loved ones, and I suppose we could call that a naive vision into her priorities/way of thinking at the time.

Without that he gets his family out and takes his chances and dies Ned Stark if he loses, and I think beyond specific regrets about Jon, that's ok with him. I don't think that's a failure to account for the cost of honour; I think it's his definition of honour.

And as we've seen, honourable men can live beyond their graves because other men honour them.

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Cersei trumped Ned by sheer luck. Drunk Robert may still have bashed that boar's skull in without getting gored, come home, found out he got cuckolded, and had Cersei's and her children's heads on pikes. Without his death, Cersei had no other cards to play and would have had to flee KL or get executed. Littlefinger trumped Ned just because he's a really good liar and is utterly unpredictable. Lots of very smart people have been getting tricked by him for a long time. Ned's not the only one.



Anybody who can peacefully rule the very unruly North (look at what happens to them after Ned and Robb are killed) without incident is a shrewd, savvy ruler in my book. Anyone who can help lead a rebellion against the Targaryens and come out on top is a brave, clever fighter. Ned bashing is entirely unwarranted. Even relatively smart characters get played in these books. Tyrion got sucked into a kingslaying trial just because he didn't have the wherewithal to disappear with Sansa after Joffrey choked on his own rage. He also got sucked into a trial in the Vale because Littlefinger lied about him, and he escaped by sheer dumb luck (teaming up with Bronn). Tyrion wasn't smart enough to keep loyal mountain men around him during the Blackwater battle and ended up getting his nose cut off by one of his most hated nephew's personal bodyguards and only survived because of sheer dumb luck (and Pod). Littlefinger and Varys are constantly doing things that the other isn't aware of and getting 'conned' as it were.


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Ned problem in KL was everyone was playing the GoT and he wasn't. He thought people would do the right thing like he would. Ned biggest mistake was telling Cersei that he knows her kids aren't Roberts and giving her a chance to leave KL before Robert came back from his hunting trip.


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No, he wasn't. His performance in Robert's Rebellion and ruling the North made that clear. Nobody inept leaves such a legacy behind.



What he was, was being late to the race and let down at the most critical time by both his friends and luck. He came to KL late, with all the schemes and years in the making, with Robert having yielded almost anything to the Lannisters, Varys, Littlefinger and to a certain extent, Renly.


Ned set things to right - but Robert stopped that, refusing him the authority to do so.


The entire goring Robert scheme by Cersei? The biggest, dumbest streak of luck ever witnessed in the entire series. It would have actually been more likely for a lightning bolt out from a clear sky to kill all her enemies at once.


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I don't think it was a lack of understanding that undid him but a conscious choice to do the honorable thing rather than what was right politically. Might not sound that different but the reality is that he wasn't unaware of the risks of behaving this way but he chose to for moral reasons. Therefore I would say:



He had all the capability to be a great politician but he chose not to be.



It should be noted that his benevolent rule in the North seems to have won him a lot of loyalty there even after his death. The same as Jon Arryn and the Vale.


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Yeah... he's pretty bad.



Trusting LF (even though he told Ned not to), sending most of his men - really the only men whose loyalty he could trust - to the Riverlands, telling Cersei exactly what he was going to do before he did it, not taking Renly up on his offer, not insisting on witnesses to Robert's will and then whipping it out at the most inopportune moment possible, not getting his kids the hell out of King's Landing... Ned made a lot of boneheaded moves. Moves that were unwise at the time and not just in retrospect.



He probably was a good military commander, but so is Barristan. So was Robert. Being good at leading an army and being good at politics are two different skill sets.



As far as the North goes... His bannermen were probably among the most loyal out of any region in Westeros. The Starks are revered (and feared) there, and Ned was liked on a personal level. The North was solidly behind him during Robert's Rebellion; not split into factions like the Vale or Riverlands. Things didn't get out of hand up there until there was no longer "a Stark in Winterfell." He simply didn't face the same issues at home as men like Tywin, Hoster, or Doran.


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Ned was no Tywin, certainly not ruthless enough. However he achieved an incredible amount of loyalty from his bannermen and nobles that new him, the problem was he went into King's Landing blind to the forces at court (varys, LF, Cersei and renly), also he lived by his morals and honour where others didn't (effectively cheating by not playing by the social rules of the time).


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Depends on how you look at it. Ned in my mind never played this political games everyone puts so much hype. Yet it wasn't political foolishness that got him killed, Joffery's malice did that. His death railed the entire North and Riverlands to open rebellion and now even in the winter and cold northmen are still willing to fight and die for his legacy and memory. Who needs political savy when you have undying loyalty?

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He got fucked over by Littlefinger-you have to remember that Ned had only been on the small council for about two-three months. He knew that he needed the Goldcloaks to win and used LF to support them-someone who he though he could trust (due to cat). If the GC hadn't turned on him then Ned would of been able to arrest Cersei and Joffrey, and place Stannis on the throne.



It's all hindsight tbh



I mean a good example of his skill in my opinion is him refusing to give Renly the crown-an inexperienced player would of given Renly the crown for his 100 swords however he knew that this would appear extremely corrupt-and I'm a big Renly fan


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It's probably overblown a bit, but he did make some terrible decisions, especially in trusting Littlefinger and telling Cersei he knew everything and was going to take her down. That was stupid. He needed Robert on his side first.



Notwithstanding, the situation was worse than he could have anticipated. Most of that falls on him, but KL was so screwed up it was ridiculous. He did have Pycelle and LF(?) witness the seal on the letter that gave Ned Regency. Further, Renly and pretty much everyone was aware that he was going to rule. He thought it was enough and he was wrong, but it's not like he ignored the importance of the letter. When reading the book, after the conversation with Renly, I actually thought he could trust Renly to stay in King's Landing.


When it was all said and done, the Gold Cloaks and City Watch were under Cersei's control, Varys had his own plans, same with LF. That's a lot to manage.



To contrast with a better player, when Tyrion arrived in King's Landing he was more aware of the situation, in part being smarter and a better player, but also in part because he grew up with his family, knowing the players better and there was just a beheading of one of the most powerful men and head of the oldest family in Westeros, nothing can be stable. He was able to flush out the adders with his Mycella marriage plan and did it quickly and exposed Pycelle.



I don't think Ned is an idiot, but was thrown into a hornets nest that few could survive. Ned would be a great ruler in times of peace and in open war.

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It's probably overblown a bit, but he did make some terrible decisions, especially in trusting Littlefinger and telling Cersei he knew everything and was going to take her down. That was stupid. He needed Robert on his side first.

Notwithstanding, the situation was worse than he could have anticipated. Most of that falls on him, but KL was so screwed up it was ridiculous. He did have Pycelle and LF(?) witness the seal on the letter that gave Ned Regency. Further, Renly and pretty much everyone was aware that he was going to rule. He thought it was enough and he was wrong, but it's not like he ignored the importance of the letter. When reading the book, after the conversation with Renly, I actually thought he could trust Renly to stay in King's Landing.

When it was all said and done, the Gold Cloaks and City Watch were under Cersei's control, Varys had his own plans, same with LF. That's a lot to manage.

To contrast with a better player, when Tyrion arrived in King's Landing he was more aware of the situation, in part being smarter and a better player, but also in part because he grew up with his family, knowing the players better and there was just a beheading of one of the most powerful men and head of the oldest family in Westeros, nothing can be stable. He was able to flush out the adders with his Mycella marriage plan and did it quickly and exposed Pycelle.

I don't think Ned is an idiot, but was thrown into a hornets nest that few could survive. Ned would be a great ruler in times of peace and in open war.

Pycelle is a strange character because despite being loyal to the Lannisters he seems to have a slight devotion to serving the realm-I can't see him being much of a threat to Ned. Barristan also witnessed the seal, and knew that Ned had been made regent.

I always thought that the City watch were under LF's control rather than the Queen

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I find the Ned bashing at times wearisome, but it can't be denied he made some significant miscalculations and that in the final analysis his faith in the efficacy of honour and duty got in the way of him practising the realpolitik that might have secured a peaceful transition to Stannis.



I think in Robert's final few hours - even after he'd made his last will and testament and was slipping away - Ned probably still had a genuine window of opportunity to take Joffrey, Cersei and the other royal children into custody without serious bloodshed.



Think about it - Jaime had fled the city with a significant number of the Lannister retainers in KL. Although Ned had a much reduced household guard, Ned still had experienced men at arms he could absolutely count on. In addition, he had the offer of at least 100 armed men from Renly and Loras that could be mobilised very rapidly.



To add to this, if he had had the sense to insist on being present for Little Finger's deal with Janos Slynt he wouldn't have been double-crossed. He could have signed an undertaking to ennoble Slynt as Lord Regent.



Trusting LF to begin with was problematic, but I think what underlined Ned's failure as a player was that he wouldn't have wanted to get his hands personally dirty by cutting such a deal with Slynt. Had he been there, LF wouldn't have had the opportunity. LF's part done, he could have been placed under guard for his own protection. Others on the Small Council such as Pycelle and Varys could have been summoned to an emergency session and then held in the Red Keep under armed guard so that in Pycelle's case no further birds could be dispatched to the Lannisters, etc.



Ned needn't have said he'd back Renly's claim to the throne. He could have simply agreed to the offer to unite their forces to rapidly take into custody Cersei and Joffrey and as Regent he could then have used the newly bought Gold Cloaks (with him having been there for the actual buying) to disarm Renly's retainers temporarily and contain Renly and Loras from leaving until Stannis returned from Dragonstone. That way, Renly wouldn't have had the opportunity to flee the city and rally the Stormlands.



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Pycelle is a strange character because despite being loyal to the Lannisters he seems to have a slight devotion to serving the realm-I can't see him being much of a threat to Ned. Barristan also witnessed the seal, and knew that Ned had been made regent.

I always thought that the City watch were under LF's control rather than the Queen

Littlefinger pays them, and as he says, who do men follow? The man that pays them.

I think that the problem was that Eddard was used to things in the North, where there is a vastly different culture, a different way of doing things, and a different mentality.

Eddard was also used to being basically a king in all but name- as he himself thinks, he will have to remember that he is merely first amongst equals in Kings Landing.

This, plus the incredible amount of scheming going on around him, and his own honour, ultimately cost him. The only thing I would truly criticise him for is not sending his daughters back at Darry, when he must have realised just how vindictive and cruel Cersei was.

The mere fact that he managed to rule the North so well is an indication that he certainly knew how to rule however, if not in the way that the South required.

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Barristan could also possibly have been taken aside by Ned and fully briefed on Jon Arryn's revelations. Ned could have had Renly alongside him for this. Barristan could have been instrumental in making Joffrey's transfer to a protective detail a fait accomli in the immediate hours before the King's death.

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The economist Steven Levitt recently said something to the effect that people who hate their jobs can't compete with those who love what they do. If you love your job you'll do it all the time, and whatever you're working on, you'll turn it over in your head even when you're eating or getting dressed.



That's why I think Ned was always going to be LFs pawn.


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