Ned - really that politically inept?

[Charles Calthrop]

Lots of good points in this thread, btw.

I think Sansa was the one thing that caught him completely flat-footed. I don't think he thought the danger to his loved ones could come from his loved ones, and I suppose we could call that a naive vision into her priorities/way of thinking at the time.

This is a really good point. Also looking back at this particular aspect - it's not naiivety into Sansa's priorities, it's just simply not knowing her or her priorities well enough. This is hardly abnormal however, as aristocrat fathers historically had little connection/interaction with their children in general, much less daughters. On top of that, Sansa in the early books is both a puzzling and difficult child to understand (in contrast to Arya or the boys). Ned himself said "War was easier than daughters" or something to that effect - in reference to Sansa.

Cersei trumped Ned by sheer luck. Drunk Robert may still have bashed that boar's skull in without getting gored, come home, found out he got cuckolded, and had Cersei's and her children's heads on pikes. Without his death, Cersei had no other cards to play and would have had to flee KL or get executed. Littlefinger trumped Ned just because he's a really good liar and is utterly unpredictable. Lots of very smart people have been getting tricked by him for a long time. Ned's not the only one.

Anybody who can peacefully rule the very unruly North (look at what happens to them after Ned and Robb are killed) without incident is a shrewd, savvy ruler in my book. Anyone who can help lead a rebellion against the Targaryens and come out on top is a brave, clever fighter. Ned bashing is entirely unwarranted. Even relatively smart characters get played in these books. Tyrion got sucked into a kingslaying trial just because he didn't have the wherewithal to disappear with Sansa after Joffrey choked on his own rage. He also got sucked into a trial in the Vale because Littlefinger lied about him, and he escaped by sheer dumb luck (teaming up with Bronn). Tyrion wasn't smart enough to keep loyal mountain men around him during the Blackwater battle and ended up getting his nose cut off by one of his most hated nephew's personal bodyguards and only survived because of sheer dumb luck (and Pod). Littlefinger and Varys are constantly doing things that the other isn't aware of and getting 'conned' as it were.

Agreed. There's also a lot of 'GRRM plot service contrivances' that seem very out of character for Ned which are also dumb moves. Particularly the constant splitting of his own house guards in various causes. Ned's an experienced battle commander and strategist - one of Westeros' best - it seems illogical that he'd divide/water down his own strength... but like other GRRM inconsistencies/contrivances, it's for plot purposes.

No, he wasn't. His performance in Robert's Rebellion and ruling the North made that clear. Nobody inept leaves such a legacy behind.

What he was, was being late to the race and let down at the most critical time by both his friends and luck. He came to KL late, with all the schemes and years in the making, with Robert having yielded almost anything to the Lannisters, Varys, Littlefinger and to a certain extent, Renly.

Ned set things to right - but Robert stopped that, refusing him the authority to do so.

The entire goring Robert scheme by Cersei? The biggest, dumbest streak of luck ever witnessed in the entire series. It would have actually been more likely for a lightning bolt out from a clear sky to kill all her enemies at once.

Very much agreed. Borders on one of GRRM's irrational plot devices.

It's probably overblown a bit, but he did make some terrible decisions, especially in trusting Littlefinger and telling Cersei he knew everything and was going to take her down. That was stupid. He needed Robert on his side first.

Notwithstanding, the situation was worse than he could have anticipated. Most of that falls on him, but KL was so screwed up it was ridiculous. He did have Pycelle and LF(?) witness the seal on the letter that gave Ned Regency. Further, Renly and pretty much everyone was aware that he was going to rule. He thought it was enough and he was wrong, but it's not like he ignored the importance of the letter. When reading the book, after the conversation with Renly, I actually thought he could trust Renly to stay in King's Landing.

When it was all said and done, the Gold Cloaks and City Watch were under Cersei's control, Varys had his own plans, same with LF. That's a lot to manage.

To contrast with a better player, when Tyrion arrived in King's Landing he was more aware of the situation, in part being smarter and a better player, but also in part because he grew up with his family, knowing the players better and there was just a beheading of one of the most powerful men and head of the oldest family in Westeros, nothing can be stable. He was able to flush out the adders with his Mycella marriage plan and did it quickly and exposed Pycelle.

I don't think Ned is an idiot, but was thrown into a hornets nest that few could survive. Ned would be a great ruler in times of peace and in open war.

Agreed, and in Tyrion's own pov - he's extra careful because "the last two hands died".

[juanml82]

Yes he is

His last conversation with Littlefinger really highlights it. He believes Petyr will help him ensure he loses his job, even after Petyr tells him directly that he will lose his job

:agree: This can't be stressed enough. True, Ned was under pain (his leg) and stress, but he should have stopped for a minute to think.

No, he wasn't. His performance in Robert's Rebellion and ruling the North made that clear. Nobody inept leaves such a legacy behind.

What he was, was being late to the race and let down at the most critical time by both his friends and luck. He came to KL late, with all the schemes and years in the making, with Robert having yielded almost anything to the Lannisters, Varys, Littlefinger and to a certain extent, Renly.

Ned set things to right - but Robert stopped that, refusing him the authority to do so.

The entire goring Robert scheme by Cersei? The biggest, dumbest streak of luck ever witnessed in the entire series. It would have actually been more likely for a lightning bolt out from a clear sky to kill all her enemies at once.

Come to think of it, hunting dangerous beasts with spears will totally drunk? It sounds like a perfect plan, it was only a matter of time until Robert had some sort of accident. And if it wasn't serious enough, Pycelle can off him and make it look like an infection.

Littlefinger pays them, and as he says, who do men follow? The man that pays them.

I think that the problem was that Eddard was used to things in the North, where there is a vastly different culture, a different way of doing things, and a different mentality.

Eddard was also used to being basically a king in all but name- as he himself thinks, he will have to remember that he is merely first amongst equals in Kings Landing.

This, plus the incredible amount of scheming going on around him, and his own honour, ultimately cost him. The only thing I would truly criticise him for is not sending his daughters back at Darry, when he must have realised just how vindictive and cruel Cersei was.

The mere fact that he managed to rule the North so well is an indication that he certainly knew how to rule however, if not in the way that the South required.

That's one of the problems. He wasn't the first among equals. He was, for all intend and purposes, the King of Westeros unless Robert overruled him.

Wants to speak with Ser Hugh, Lysa and Stannis? He can summon them.

[Charles snow]

Pycelle is a strange character because despite being loyal to the Lannisters he seems to have a slight devotion to serving the realm-I can't see him being much of a threat to Ned. Barristan also witnessed the seal, and knew that Ned had been made regent.

I always thought that the City watch were under LF's control rather than the Queen

Pycelle was definitely not serve the realm. He was a rat for the Lannisters all the way back in Aerys' reign when he told him to open the gates of KL to Tywin. Now when Ned gets to KL everything he does and says around Pycelle are immediately reported to Cercei, Ned even thinks as much in one of his last chapters. So all that being said, he deserves what he gets since he doesn't do his job right until a Lannister is sitting their pompous ass in the Iron Throne.

[James Arryn]

Lots of good points in this thread, btw.

This is a really good point. Also looking back at this particular aspect - it's not naiivety into Sansa's priorities, it's just simply not knowing her or her priorities well enough. This is hardly abnormal however, as aristocrat fathers historically had little connection/interaction with their children in general, much less daughters. On top of that, Sansa in the early books is both a puzzling and difficult child to understand (in contrast to Arya or the boys). Ned himself said "War was easier than daughters" or something to that effect - in reference to Sansa.

Yeah, I think people overlook Ned's life history when talking about assumptions he makes. Life had not taught him that men act honourably or that the good side wins or that people fulfill oaths. None of those were his experience, and so I am baffled that people think those are his assumptions. I think he makes his choices knowing those things, not oblivious to them.

The one thing life had not taught him was that Starks could betray Starks. I think he probably assumed, whatever the superficial differences, that loyalty to their family would be the ultimate factor in any option to side with their foes, and that was his one true mistake. Cersei looking out for her kids wouldn't surprise him. Tywin looking out for his house wouldn't surprise him. Even LF looking out for LF would come as no surprise; he probably did not perceive how that would play out, but if you asked him what LF's interests were, I have no doubt he would rank LF first. He's used to others putting themselves and their wants first.

But he assumed Sansa would put the Starks first, and that proved wrong in the moment of crisis. Without that, he dies in a manner he wouldn't mind and in keeping with his ancestors. He definitely isn't forced to renounce his honour and admit to treason, which IMO hurt him far, far more than the idea of losing his life. And although it wasn't part of his calculations, without Sansa in hand, the Lannisters can't afford to kill Ned at the cost of Jaime. I'd imagine even Joff would have seen that.

In his defence, Sansa's decision couldn't even be anticipated by including Tully values within Stark experiences. Whatever their cultural differences, Ned and Cat were both fiercely loyal to their families.

[The Academic Wolf]

That's one of the problems. He wasn't the first among equals. He was, for all intend and purposes, the King of Westeros unless Robert overruled him.

Wants to speak with Ser Hugh, Lysa and Stannis? He can summon them.

But he thinks of himself as first amongst equals. Another poster in an unrelated thread pointed this out, but Eddard appeared to view the post of Hand as more advisory than being, in modern terms, a Prime Minister. Tyrion shows us how much power the office could hold, whilst Eddard appears to show what the office was/should be, if the King is half way competent/interested in ruling.

Of course, with the situation in Kings Landing being what it was, with Robert basically being the void where a King should be, and the Lannisters, Littlfinger, Varys, Pycelle, etc all scheming and plotting, Eddard needed to be more proactive. He was not, most likely because he felt that was not his duty.

[Charles Calthrop]

Yeah, I think people overlook Ned's life history when talking about assumptions he makes. Life had not taught him that men act honourably or that the good side wins or that people fulfill oaths. None of those were his experience, and so I am baffled that people think those are his assumptions. I think he makes his choices knowing those things, not oblivious to them.

The one thing life had not taught him was that Starks could betray Starks. I think he probably assumed, whatever the superficial differences, that loyalty to their family would be the ultimate factor in any option to side with their foes, and that was his one true mistake. Cersei looking out for her kids wouldn't surprise him. Tywin looking out for his house wouldn't surprise him. Even LF looking out for LF would come as no surprise; he probably did not perceive how that would play out, but if you asked him what LF's interests were, I have no doubt he would rank LF first. He's used to others putting themselves and their wants first.

But he assumed Sansa would put the Starks first, and that proved wrong in the moment of crisis. Without that, he dies in a manner he wouldn't mind and in keeping with his ancestors. He definitely isn't forced to renounce his honour and admit to treason, which IMO hurt him far, far more than the idea of losing his life. And although it wasn't part of his calculations, without Sansa in hand, the Lannisters can't afford to kill Ned at the cost of Jaime. I'd imagine even Joff would have seen that.

In his defence, Sansa's decision couldn't even be anticipated by including Tully values within Stark experiences. Whatever their cultural differences, Ned and Cat were both fiercely loyal to their families.

Leave alone Tully/Stark values - could you see Marg betraying the Tyrells that way? Or a young Cersei with the Lannisters? I think young Sansa was an unusual case.

[James Arryn]

Leave alone Tully/Stark values - could you see Marg betraying the Tyrells that way? Or a young Cersei with the Lannisters? I think young Sansa was an unusual case.

What? I wasn't saying those values were exclusively Stark or Tully, I was saying it's not like bringing Cat in changed the values Ned could/would expect from his family in this regard. Iow, I am agreeing that Sansa was unique.

[The Holy Goat]

Ned was clearly out of his league when compared to Cersei, Varys and Littlefinger, but I wouldn't say he was complete rubbish at politics. I've seen worse in the books. Just my opinion.

[James Arryn]

Ned was clearly out of his league when compared to Cersei, Varys and Littlefinger, but I wouldn't say he was complete rubbish at politics. I've seen worse in the books. Just my opinion.

One of these things...

But seriously, Cersei? She was gifted a chance by Ned. Her solution was to trust a boar and publicly tear up Robert's will. Not exactly Robespierre.

[Lointain]

To me, the single most mortal error of Eddard Stark in KL was: didn't accepted the offer of help from Renly and to take in custody Cersei's children.

After this, he was doomed.

[James Arryn]

To me, the single most mortal error of Eddard Stark in KL was: didn't accepted the offer of help from Renly and to take in custody Cersei's children.

After this, he was doomed.

That was certainly his last great chance. What makes me the most curious about that scene is that Ned, who clearly understands succession, actually pauses and seems to consider it.

[new djinn]

The first thing a new political player does when he comes into office is to place people of his personal trust into key positions in order to strenghten is position and influence. The second thing is to try to introduce some new dynamic or idea that will leave his mark and drive the entire decision making process.

Ned did neither, despite the fact that he had Robert's personal confidence. I love the moments were he thinks Barristan is duty-bound to serve the King but makes no effort to explain beforehand about Roberts will, pretty much pushing Barristan into defending Joffrey, or how he critisizes Edmure for splitting his forces and then goes to split the Hand's guard. Alsofunny is the fact that the assassination of some girl Ned's never meet provokes him into resigning but the hunting and assault of one of his daughters at Darry, Cersei' clear hostility, the injustice of the execution of Lady, the reveal of Joffrey's character aren't enough for him to break off the Sansa-Joffrey marriage and return to WF.

Ned tries to be a nice guy all the time, and because people as a society want to believe the best of those they simpatize, there's a fundamental ''need'' to whitewash their mistakes or justified them. Ned was a good politician, Jaime is redemeed, Tyrion is a nice person, Tywin did what was best for the realm, Daenerys\Renly\Rhaegar would've been the bestest ruler ever, Robb was invencible, Jon never brooke his vows, Stannis is always just.

[Toos]

The first thing a new political player does when he comes into office is to place people of his personal trust into key positions in order to strenghten is position and influence. The second thing is to try to introduce some new dynamic or idea that will leave his mark and drive the entire decision making process.

Ned did neither, despite the fact that he had Robert's personal confidence. I love the moments were he thinks Barristan is duty-bound to serve the King but makes no effort to explain beforehand about Roberts will, pretty much pushing Barristan into defending Joffrey, or how he critisizes Edmure for splitting his forces and then goes to split the Hand's guard. Alsofunny is the fact that the assassination of some girl Ned's never meet provokes him into resigning but the hunting and assault of one of his daughters at Darry, Cersei' clear hostility, the injustice of the execution of Lady, the reveal of Joffrey's character aren't enough for him to break off the Sansa-Joffrey marriage and return to WF.

Ned tries to be a nice guy all the time, and because people as a society want to believe the best of those they simpatize, there's a fundamental ''need'' to whitewash their mistakes or justified them. Ned was a good politician, Jaime is redemeed, Tyrion is a nice person, Tywin did what was best for the realm, Daenerys\Renly\Rhaegar would've been the bestest ruler ever, Robb was invencible, Jon never brooke his vows, Stannis is always just.

Problem is that Ned would need Robert's approval to remove Varys, LF, etc. When Jon Arryn wanted remove Slynt, Robert refused and showed to Ned that Ned couldn't count on his support.

Yes, Ned made mistakes but really Tyrion and Tywin had much better position than Ned and both lost too.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Come to think of it, hunting dangerous beasts with spears will totally drunk? It sounds like a perfect plan, it was only a matter of time until Robert had some sort of accident. And if it wasn't serious enough, Pycelle can off him and make it look like an infection.

And that's the problem: Cersei was on the clock. Robert didn't have to die sometime, but right now before he returned, or Ned went to him despite it, or survive, or Barristan or somebody involving himself or just not finding any boar.

[new djinn]

Problem is that Ned would need Robert's approval to remove Varys, LF, etc. When Jon Arryn wanted remove Slynt, Robert refused and showed to Ned that Ned couldn't count on his support.

Yes, Ned made mistakes but really Tyrion and Tywin had much better position than Ned and both lost too.

But both Jon, Tyrion and Tywin try, Ned doesn't even goes there. If Ned tried to do things and Robert kept blocking or undermining him, that would be on Robert, but Ned never really tries. He doesn't trust anyone on the council or KL, but instead of trying to bring him trustworthy people, he does nothing. Why not say: ''Bob, buddy, i need worthy people in the GCloaks and the council and if you don't want to back me up on this, well maybe someone else be better as Hand.'' and them he could pull up a Doran if Bob says no.

[The Frosted King]

Ned was screwed by Robert, and the long running machinations of those he's supposed to look to for support.

But mostly Robert.

Ned tries to replace Baelish or Pycelle, we know Cersei is coming to nag Robert into vetoing it, and Robert ending the conversation with a bellow and a stumble off.

You can't rule like that.

Point blank, nothing Robert ever exhibited justified Ned's loyalty towards him.

And the one thing i truly feel the first book lacked was a scene where Ned straight stripped Robert to the core in terms of the futility of his handship, by way of the weakness of the king.

The chapter where Robert visits Ned after his fall was begging for it.

Just a cathartic dressing down where he in his grief and frustrations from the murder of his men, tells Robert why his realm is shitty, and what must be done to right it.

Start from the Jaime warden of the east thing on down, and promise to leave as hand, if Robert insists on being absent as king.

Never happened, but it needed to.

[Charles Calthrop]

What? I wasn't saying those values were exclusively Stark or Tully, I was saying it's not like bringing Cat in changed the values Ned could/would expect from his family in this regard. Iow, I am agreeing that Sansa was unique.

Sorry, that came off wrong. I was rhetorically agreeing with your point, but didn't do a great job of conveying that over text.

One of these things...

But seriously, Cersei? She was gifted a chance by Ned. Her solution was to trust a boar and publicly tear up Robert's will. Not exactly Robespierre.

This. All of Cersei's 'brilliant moves' usually come from dumb luck or an extreme advantage in position. There's just about nothing she does that suggests any kind of competence. This is pretty forcibly presented when you see her operating with a free hand and demonstrates herself to be a worse ruler than Robert.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

Ned's trusting nature is part of his charm. Some men were meant to play the game, and some were meant to brood in their castle. Yes, he was politically inept, but look at the men in this game who are adept, none of them is the type you'd want as a father. Ned was just too good for this world, and we should love him for that.

[Blackfyre Gateau]

I'm re-reading AGoT at the moment and there's a great passage at the end of the 2nd Ned Chapter that really captures how forlorn Ned felt his situation as Hand was even before the Direwolf dispute or the arrival in KL.

Robert has yet again shut Ned down entirely on hos concerns over Jaime Lannister becoming Warden of the East, he's made crystal clear he won't brook any mercy for Dany, and he's laughed at Bee's pointed warning about the Kingslayer's ambitions (seen as deadly serious by Ned from his POV though we obviously get Jaime's more nuanced reflections in due course).

It's a great passage because for me it captures the extent to which Ned feels boxed in and ineffective from the outset. Yes, Robert is his friend, but Robert sees what he wants to see and will fly into rage if his 'fire and blood' agenda is challenged. While Jon Arryn had been something of a sage/ mentor card to play given Robert had been his Ward, Ned doesn't have that same tacit sage status and calming ability:

"He had run out of words, and he was filled with a vast sense of helplessness. Not for the first time, he wondered what he was doing here and why he had come. He was no Jon Arryn, to curb the wildness of his king and teach him wisdom. Robert would do as he pleased, as he always had, and nothing Ned could say or do would change that. He belonged in Winterfell. He belonged with Catelyn in her grief, and with Bran.

A man could not always be where he belonged, though. Resigned, Eddard Stark put his boots into his horse and set off after the king."

I think many of the problems Ned faced would have also confounded Stannis or Renly had they been chosen. Robert seemed somewhat unaware of just how much influence he had ceded to the Lannisters both in terms of the make-up of the Royal household/ court and the broader subtle influence they were allowed to enjoy.

Under Jon Arryn you get a sense that he and Stannis were trying to make the best of a very bad situation - Robert seemed indifferent to the spiralling debt ("counting coppers") and creeping corruption with respect to the Goldcloaks and so forth. If you don't have the full political backing of the King to make reforms, you're always going to be on a hiding to nothing if you are a 'just' character like Ned or Stannis...

[Charles Calthrop]

Very good analysis Blackfyre Gateau - that's a very good take on things.

I'm re-reading AGoT at the moment and there's a great passage at the end of the 2nd Ned Chapter that really captures how forlorn Ned felt his situation as Hand was even before the Direwolf dispute or the arrival in KL.

Robert has yet again shut Ned down entirely on hos concerns over Jaime Lannister becoming Warden of the East, he's made crystal clear he won't brook any mercy for Dany, and he's laughed at Bee's pointed warning about the Kingslayer's ambitions (seen as deadly serious by Ned from his POV though we obviously get Jaime's more nuanced reflections in due course).

It's a great passage because for me it captures the extent to which Ned feels boxed in and ineffective from the outset. Yes, Robert is his friend, but Robert sees what he wants to see and will fly into rage if his 'fire and blood' agenda is challenged. While Jon Arryn had been something of a sage/ mentor card to play given Robert had been his Ward, Ned doesn't have that same tacit sage status and calming ability:

"He had run out of words, and he was filled with a vast sense of helplessness. Not for the first time, he wondered what he was doing here and why he had come. He was no Jon Arryn, to curb the wildness of his king and teach him wisdom. Robert would do as he pleased, as he always had, and nothing Ned could say or do would change that. He belonged in Winterfell. He belonged with Catelyn in her grief, and with Bran.

A man could not always be where he belonged, though. Resigned, Eddard Stark put his boots into his horse and set off after the king."

I think many of the problems Ned faced would have also confounded Stannis or Renly had they been chosen. Robert seemed somewhat unaware of just how much influence he had ceded to the Lannisters both in terms of the make-up of the Royal household/ court and the broader subtle influence they were allowed to enjoy.

Under Jon Arryn you get a sense that he and Stannis were trying to make the best of a very bad situation - Robert seemed indifferent to the spiralling debt ("counting coppers") and creeping corruption with respect to the Goldcloaks and so forth. If you don't have the full political backing of the King to make reforms, you're always going to be on a hiding to nothing if you are a 'just' character like Ned or Stannis...