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(Spoilers All) What if Varys and Illyrio are both telling the truth?


bryndenthewhite

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Um...the story for both Varys and Illyrio is that Aegon is a Targaryen. Illyrio has never said the boy is a Blackfyre. So if they're both telling the truth, then Aegon is Rhaegar and Elia's son.

It is strongly hinted that Aegon is a blackfyre, or at least that Illyrio knows he isn't a targ. That being said, I'm not firmly entrenched in the "Aegon is a blackfyre" camp myself, so I'll let someone else explain the theory in more detail (or you could click on the link I provided).

And when I said "Illyrio is telling the truth" I meant when he tells Aegon he has "something for him in the chests." Illyrio never says Aegon is a targ, or even hints at it (I have no idea where you got that idea from), but he does hint that Aegon is either his son, a blackfyre, or possibly both.

That said, if Aegon is real, we can probably expect someone else to pop up Blackfyre (*cough, Daario, cough*). There's too much Blackfyre foreshadowing for that not to be part of the story, unless GRRM has mastered the ultimate in trolling the readers. :D

I agree, someone is definitely a blackfyre. But Daario, really? I'd pick even Brown Ben Plumm or Varys over Daario for "most likely crackpot Blackfyre."

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I agree, someone is definitely a blackfyre. But Daario, really? I'd pick even Brown Ben Plumm or Varys over Daario for "most likely crackpot Blackfyre."

:D Daario as a Blackfyre descendant falls under what I call Ultra-Crackpot! *cue trumpets*

Daemon's youngest son was taken by Bittersteel to Tyrosh. Daario is Tyroshi (there's more, I swear). Aegon's blue hair dye, which hides the fact that his eyes are purple, is explained by a cover story of his mother having been from Tyrosh. Daario's eyes are blue, but...he's wearing blue hair dye. So are his eyes really blue? Or are they purple? A lot of people think Dany will be betrayed by Daario, and this would be one heck of a betrayal. Imagine her reaction if he tries to tell her that her throne is really his, but hey, he'll marry her and she can play second banana. Feel the burn!

I also find it interesting that Doran has some kind of ties to the Archon of Tyrosh. It's possible he just has lots of friends in lots of places, but I wonder if there's something more there.

I think Varys is more likely a Brightflame descendant. The "bald as an egg" line hints back to Egg, and Aerion was more closely related to Egg than any of the Blackfyres were.

Brown Ben already has a Targ connection by virtue of being a Plumm. If the modern day Plumms had a Blackfyre link, Tyrion would know it, though I grant he might not mention it.

There's definitely heavy foreshadowing of Blackfyre, I'm just not pinning it on Aegon yet.

And when I said "Illyrio is telling the truth" I meant when he tells Aegon he has "something for him in the chests." Illyrio never says Aegon is a targ, or even hints at it (I have no idea where you got that idea from), but he does hint that Aegon is either his son, a blackfyre, or possibly both.

Illyrio never says that Aegon isn't a Targ. He does not hint that Aegon is his son or a Blackfyre. That is reader deduction based on Tyrion's reactions to what Illyrio tells him. Not once does Illyrio indicate or hint anything that contradicts Varys' assertion that Aegon is Rhaegar and Elia's son.

I've seen the theory threads and all the evidence put forth. It doesn't change what is actually in the text and while the conjecture is strong, it is still just conjecture at this point.

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:D Daario as a Blackfyre descendant falls under what I call Ultra-Crackpot! *cue trumpets*

Daemon's youngest son was taken by Bittersteel to Tyrosh. Daario is Tyroshi (there's more, I swear). Aegon's blue hair dye, which hides the fact that his eyes are purple, is explained by a cover story of his mother having been from Tyrosh. Daario's eyes are blue, but...he's wearing blue hair dye. So are his eyes really blue? Or are they purple? A lot of people think Dany will be betrayed by Daario, and this would be one heck of a betrayal. Imagine her reaction if he tries to tell her that her throne is really his, but hey, he'll marry her and she can play second banana. Feel the burn!

I also find it interesting that Doran has some kind of ties to the Archon of Tyrosh. It's possible he just has lots of friends in lots of places, but I wonder if there's something more there.

I think Varys is more likely a Brightflame descendant. The "bald as an egg" line hints back to Egg, and Aerion was more closely related to Egg than any of the Blackfyres were.

Brown Ben already has a Targ connection by virtue of being a Plumm. If the modern day Plumms had a Blackfyre link, Tyrion would know it, though I grant he might not mention it.

There's definitely heavy foreshadowing of Blackfyre, I'm just not pinning it on Aegon yet.

Illyrio never says that Aegon isn't a Targ. He does not hint that Aegon is his son or a Blackfyre. That is reader deduction based on Tyrion's reactions to what Illyrio tells him. Not once does Illyrio indicate or hint anything that contradicts Varys' assertion that Aegon is Rhaegar and Elia's son.

I've seen the theory threads and all the evidence put forth. It doesn't change what is actually in the text and while the conjecture is strong, it is still just conjecture at this point.

I think Daario being a Blackfyre is definitely a possibility. There are three things that I noticed in my re-read of Dany that first gave me this suspicion. First the description we get of Daario when we first meet him in Chapter 42-ASOS:

...and Daario Naharis was flamboyant even for a Tyroshi. His beard was cut into three prongs and dyed blue, the same color as his eyes and the curly hair that fell to his collar.

Then we get this description of Daario in Chapter 71-ASOS:

Daario had plundered himself a whole new wardrobe in Meereen, and to match it he had redyed his trident beard and curly hair a deep rich purple. It made his eyes look almost purple too, as if he were some lost Valyrian.

From this point on it seems Daario's eyes are referred to as being purple. I (like most people) hadn't noticed that the description of Daario had actually changed. And finally, from Chapter 42-ASOS we see how relaxed Daario is with the dragons:

If her dragons discomfited Daario Naharis, he hid it well. For all the mind he paid them, they might have been three kittens playing with a mouse.

When I was reading the Daario=Euron thread, I noticed they said GRRM said there was a little something more to Daario (although I haven't seen this statement myself) and I immediately thought, aha, maybe he really is a Blackfyre from the female line.

ETA: Oops, forgot to address the OP. If we were to take Varys at his word, then he is trying to return Aegon, the son of Rhaegar and Elia, to the throne for the good of the realm. If we take Illyrio at his word, then he is involved in this operation because he wants to help Varys in gratitude for all that Varys has given him. I happen to actually believe both of them. There is no way that if we actually accept what Varys and Illyrio are saying that Aegon is anything other than Rhaegar and Elia's son.

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Here's another (better) possibility. Varys smuggled Aegon out of king's landing and gave him to Illyrio, but Illyrio instead killed/eliminated the boy and led everyone (including Varys) to believe that Illyrio's own son was the prince Aegon. Remember, Varys has not seen 'Aegon' since he is a baby, and one child with Valyrian features can look similar to another. This might be valid even if Illyrio's son isn't a blackfyre. I can think of no problems with this theory, except I can't imagine Varys being outsmarted by anyone other than LF, but that is not to say they don't exist

Illyrio wouldn't even have had to kill rAegon; infant mortality in the middle ages was infamously high. Take a tiny baby on a long journey in not-great circumstances and you're asking for trouble. (Gilly's lucky.)

As far as Varys being outsmarted: the more emotionally invested you are, the easier to fool you become (LF himself is probably going to learn this from Sansa).

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  • 4 weeks later...

Illyrio wouldn't even have had to kill rAegon; infant mortality in the middle ages was infamously high. Take a tiny baby on a long journey in not-great circumstances and you're asking for trouble. (Gilly's lucky.)

Exactly. And that would mean that Illyrio wouldn't have to openly betray Varys (by murdering the boy he rescued). That way, Illyrio's deception of Varys would be reduced to a smaller lie of omission rather than outright betrayal.

Although, I'll admit it would be pretty anticlimactic/ironic if Aegon had survived the Red Keep only to die on a ship crossing the Narrow Sea. King's Landing to Pentos isn't really that far or dangerous of a journey compared to some of the others we've seen in the series.

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