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Jaime Lannister's honor


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#1 Brute of Bracken

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:03 AM

I think Jaime is intrinsically a pretty decent guy. He wants to to good, he wants to be like Arthur Dayne, and he sincerely tries to do so. Then he sees the hypocrisy of all these "honorable" men, and realizes that the honor he seeks is nothing more than the name of a horse.  He knows there is no sanctity in oaths, but still tries to keep his words to Catelyn and return her daughters. This act especially makes me think that he isn't being honorable for "honor's sake:, but because he intrinsically a good person. 

 

However, he does have major flaws - particularly his blind love for Cersei. This has led to almost all of his despicable acts in the story. To me, his redemption was complete when he burnt Cersei's letter. He realizes how blind he has been. He deserves someone better than Cersei (Brienne?). I expect him to be a very good guy going forward.

 
Thoughts?


#2 LordStoneheart

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:22 AM

So far the only thing I see about his "redemption" arc is that he now pats himself on the back because of how good he's going to be one day like he wanted to as a child while still not making major changes other than Cersei.



#3 Brute of Bracken

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:26 AM

So far the only thing I see about his "redemption" arc is that he now pats himself on the back because of how good he's going to be one day like he wanted to as a child while still not making major changes other than Cersei.

 

What major changes were you expecting? Does he do anything "dishonorable" after losing his love for Cersei?



#4 LordStoneheart

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:27 AM

Supporting his bastard on a throne he has no right to should count.



#5 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:28 AM

To me, his redemption was complete when he burnt Cersei's letter. He realizes how blind he has been.

I think this is the start of his real redemption.

#6 Brute of Bracken

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:32 AM

Supporting his bastard on a throne he has no right to should count.

 

I don't know - it's too late to go back on that one. Tommen is still family. 

 

I think this is the start of his real redemption.

 

In your opinion, what does he need to do for it to be complete?



#7 LordStoneheart

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:32 AM

^ That I can agree with. (JCRB)

 

If Jaime truly wants to redeem himself he needs to get Tommen off of that throne he has no right to while not causing any harm to him. Jaime's already screwed up half the continent by putting his bastards on that throne. If he truly wants to become good and reject his father's "feast for crows" he has to accept that he has a large part in prepping that feast and take away the cause.


Edited by LordStoneheart, 02 July 2014 - 12:35 AM.


#8 Dofs

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:37 AM

So far the only thing I see about his "redemption" arc is that he now pats himself on the back because of how good he's going to be one day like he wanted to as a child while still not making major changes other than Cersei.

In what way he is trying to redeem himself or pats himself on the back?



#9 Sapphireghost18

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:38 AM

I think the completion of his redemption is giving his life (possibly for Brieanne). His love for Cersei was real but she was a terrible influence on him. Truly reaching redemption for him will be doing a Arthur Dayne like action that will fail because of his lack of a hand. I will hate losing Jamie but, I feel like this is the best end to his redemption storyline. 



#10 Reek Havoc

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:44 AM

I think this is the start of his real redemption.

 

I agree.  Up until that point, it just seemed to me as though he just liked the idea of redemption. Until he saw Cersei for what she was and consciously made the decision to stop doing her bidding, he was never going to truly be on the road to redemption.  How can you, when the person that you're devoted to is a self-centered manipulator (among other things)?  He does, however, get credit in my book for acknowledging that he is in need of redemption in the first place.  I believe he has Brienne to thank for that.  Although he hasn't come close to redeeming himself, just the fact that he wants to is a total 180 from where he started at the beginning of the series.



#11 Ygrain

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:49 AM

I think this is the start of his real redemption.

I wouldn't call it a start but the next stage, I think that the major game changer was when he returned for Brienne. He never really cared for anyone except Cersei before that, but still, change=/=redemption. He has a lot to do, a loooong way to go.



#12 Littlestfinger

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:51 AM

He may have been driven to it by his love for Cirsei, but it wasn't her idea for Jaime to throw Bran out the window. Jaime has certainly come a long way in the story, but that's still hard to forgive. Likewise having his men kill Ned's companions in a street brawl.



#13 chrisdaw

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:56 AM

Ultimately Jaime will be judged for his actions. His children are too young to understand, but ultimately circumstances will have changed and people are not going to care his children are his, he has sort of dodged a bullet on this, had his redemption come sooner people would have cared. The people of KL will forgive him for Aerys when they learn why he killed him. Bran will forgive him when Bran comes to understand love. Tyrion will forgive him because he's his brother.



#14 LordStoneheart

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 01:06 AM

What the slashfic?

 

First, Bran understands love. A child's understanding of the love of family is just as pure if not more than an adult. Second, Bran will never forgive him for ruining his life, nor should he. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'll ask the next paraplegic I meet if they would ever forgive the one who purposely made them that way just to be sure.



#15 Minsc

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 01:11 AM

 
What major changes were you expecting? Does he do anything "dishonorable" after losing his love for Cersei?


Threaten to kill an infant

#16 The Wolves

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 01:22 AM

He's a monster who pushed a child out a window because that child had innocently stumbled across Jaime engaging in an nasty treasonous act with his sister/queen.

He knowingly engages in an act(sex with the queen/having 3 bastards with her and going along to pass them off as heirs to the Baratheon dynasty)that causes a war. I don't care what other factors or people played a part(Littlefinger, Varys, etc)he gave them the means to start a war and they used it.

He along with others is the cause of EVERY death, rape, murder, trauma, pain, hell, and destruction that happened during TWot5ks. He and Cersei are the ones most responsible.

All his bad acts have outweighed the good, therefore he'll never be anything but a monster to me who brought about a destructive that have plunged a country into poverty, starvation, and possible destruction by a ice zombie army. I hate him so very very very very times a billion much. He's a monster.

#17 LionoftheWest

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 01:22 AM

^ That I can agree with. (JCRB)

 

If Jaime truly wants to redeem himself he needs to get Tommen off of that throne he has no right to while not causing any harm to him. Jaime's already screwed up half the continent by putting his bastards on that throne. If he truly wants to become good and reject his father's "feast for crows" he has to accept that he has a large part in prepping that feast and take away the cause.

 

Which is about as impossible as Jaime transforming into a god and redefining what is "good". If Tommen gets off the throne, he's toast as the next one to sit on the throne will have the boy killed. That's how Westeros works. 

 

And Jaime didn't put Joffrey on the throne, Cersei and Robert did by raising the child as the heir. 

 

Threaten to kill an infant

 

And thus sparing the hundreds of lives that taking Riverrun by storm would cost.



#18 Mark Antony

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 01:24 AM

Jaime has no honor :)

#19 Minsc

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 01:26 AM

 
 
And Jaime didn't put Joffrey on the throne, Cersei and Robert did by raising the child as the heir. 
 
 
And thus sparing the hundreds of lives that taking Riverrun by storm would cost.


Robert raised Joffrey as his heir, because Jaime lied to him

He could have easily handed himself over to BF or just call off the siege

#20 LionoftheWest

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 01:29 AM

He's a monster who pushed a child out a window because that child had innocently stumbled across Jaime engaging in an nasty treasonous act with his sister/queen.

He knowingly engages in an act(sex with the queen/having 3 bastards with her and going along to pass them off as heirs to the Baratheon dynasty)that causes a war. I don't care what other factors or people played a part(Littlefinger, Varys, etc)he gave them the means to start a war and they used it.

He along with others is the cause of EVERY death, rape, murder, trauma, pain, hell, and destruction that happened during TWot5ks. He and Cersei are the ones most responsible.

All his bad acts have outweighed the good, therefore he'll never be anything but a monster to me who brought about a destructive that have plunged a country into poverty, starvation, and possible destruction by a ice zombie army. I hate him so very very very very times a billion much. He's a monster.

 

1. Because he knew that of the child lived three more children would die, alongside his love and leading to a war which would have caused thousands furthermore to die in the Westerlands when Robert invaded.

 

2. You may not care, but if we look at who is guilty of what it is very relevant that it was Littlefinger etc. who did used those means to start the war. Not Jaime.

 

3. Preposterous! Every man and women are guilty of their own acts and can't blame them on someone else. Every rape and murder happened becaused someone decided to rape or murder someone else, and they can't it on Jaime and Cersei.

 

4. No, he is a man who was thrown into difficult situations and had to make choices with consequences. And I don't remember Jaime going on murder sprees like Amory Lorch or establishing rape-camps like Roose Bolton.