Jaime Lannister's honor

[Lion of the West]

Robert raised Joffrey as his heir, because Jaime lied to him

He could have easily handed himself over to BF or just call off the siege

Jaime didn't say anything as far as I recall. Neither yes or no.

And in what way would Jaime do anything save betraying his oaths to his king? Even the legal heir Stannis considered Robb's followers to be traitors and rebels and so in what way would advancing the goals of separatists fighting against the Iron Throne help to make up for his mistakes to put the wrong person on the throne?

And please recall that the Blackfish don't fight for the rightful king to sit on the Iron Throne. He fights to sever the realm in half.

[Samsaptakas]

Jaime does not even need redemption. Most of his act were to save someone life or lives.

[LordStoneheart]

Which is about as impossible as Jaime transforming into a god and redefining what is "good". If Tommen gets off the throne, he's toast as the next one to sit on the throne will have the boy killed. That's how Westeros works.

And Jaime didn't put Joffrey on the throne, Cersei and Robert did by raising the child as the heir.

Exactly. My way of saying it's nearly impossible for him to redeem himself.

He has a part in putting his bastard on the throne. He willingly committed treason against the king he was sworn to protect by bedding his sister the Queen, knowingly denying Robert trueborn heirs of that marriage, and letting him go on thinking the crown prince was his own child. Jaime placed him on the throne just as much as Cersei did by keeping up the deception.

[Minsc]

Jaime didn't say anything as far as I recall. Neither yes or no.

And in what way would Jaime do anything save betraying his oaths to his king? Even the legal heir Stannis considered Robb's followers to be traitors and rebels and so in what way would advancing the goals of separatists fighting against the Iron Throne help to make up for his mistakes to put the wrong person on the throne?

And please recall that the Blackfish don't fight for the rightful king to sit on the Iron Throne. He fights to sever the realm in half.

Please, he is obviously guilty for helping perpetuate the lie about Joffrey,

It shows that he didn't threaten child, instead it was only done to serve his vile family

[Ygrain]

He's a monster who pushed a child out a window because that child had innocently stumbled across Jaime engaging in an nasty treasonous act with his sister/queen.

He knowingly engages in an act(sex with the queen/having 3 bastards with her and going along to pass them off as heirs to the Baratheon dynasty)that causes a war. I don't care what other factors or people played a part(Littlefinger, Varys, etc)he gave them the means to start a war and they used it.

He along with others is the cause of EVERY death, rape, murder, trauma, pain, hell, and destruction that happened during TWot5ks. He and Cersei are the ones most responsible.

All his bad acts have outweighed the good, therefore he'll never be anything but a monster to me who brought about a destructive that have plunged a country into poverty, starvation, and possible destruction by a ice zombie army. I hate him so very very very very times a billion much. He's a monster.

If he was a real monster, he wouldn't have been capable of reflecting on what he has become. - Which doesn't detract from his evil, but the war was not solely his doing, there was Varys and LF with their own little games. The war was coming, Jaime and not, and these two brought it about knowingly and willingly. They are the real monsters, with not a shadow of redeeming qualities.

[Minsc]

Jaime does not even need redemption. Most of his act were to save someone life or lives.

Truly lying to Tyrion saved lives or the committing treason by cuckolding his king or the pushing an innocent child out the window or hunting a child with the intent to maim/kill or ordering innocent men to punish their boss or the attacking of an innocent realm or his threatening of an infant and so forth

[The Wolves]

1. Because he knew that of the child lived three more children would die, alongside his love and leading to a war which would have caused thousands furthermore to die in the Westerlands when Robert invaded.

2. You may not care, but if we look at who is guilty of what it is very relevant that it was Littlefinger etc. who did used those means to start the war. Not Jaime.

3. Preposterous! Every man and women are guilty of their own acts and can't blame them on someone else. Every rape and murder happened becaused someone decided to rape or murder someone else, and they can't it on Jaime and Cersei.

4. No, he is a man who was thrown into difficult situations and had to make choices with consequences. And I don't remember Jaime going on murder sprees like Amory Lorch or establishing rape-camps like Roose Bolton.

1. Jaime did not care about his children when he pushed Bran, he sure didn't care about the thousands that would die in the Westerlands if he did he wouldn't have had sex and breed with the queen for over a decade plus. His mind was on him and Cersei.

And Bran was the most innocent person in the situation Jaime created he shouldn't have to die to keep two monsters from getting their just desserts.

2. Like I said Jaime and Cersei planted the seeds of a war they were just too stupid and reckless to realize that somebody would find out. Without those bastards there wouldn't be TWot5Ks and they wouldn't have breed that inbreed monster little bitch Joffery.

3. The war is on them they deserve blame because they knew war would come about if they were found out and they continued anyway. Everything that has happened during TWot5ks they share blame.

4. Jaime bought those difficult choices and consequences on himself. And pushing a child out a window trying to kill him to cover up a trifling relationship with your sick twisted evil sister is enough for me to call anybody a monster for life.

[LordStoneheart]

Had Jaime not slept with Cersei and fathered those three bastards, and had Cersei actually given Robert an heir, they schemers would have a lot less fuel to start the war. Pray tell, how does LF start the war if Cersei has a boy with the Baratheon looks? What rumor can he spread? Stannis cuckolds Robert and is the father? No one would believe it. Same with Renly. Varys would be doing his Targaryen/Blackfyre stuff anyway, but that has not really come into play in the first three books.

Blanket statements like "x caused war" may not be much of a help, but no one is so wet with Lannister love that they could deny Jaime and Cersei were the biggest factor in starting this war.

[chrisdaw]

What the slashfic?

First, Bran understands love. A child's understanding of the love of family is just as pure if not more than an adult. Second, Bran will never forgive him for ruining his life, nor should he. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'll ask the next paraplegic I meet if they would ever forgive the one who purposely made them that way just to be sure.

Bran doesn't understand the love between two mutually attracted individuals, as he says, he thinks the kissing Stories Sansa likes are stupid. But that's what Meera is for, and what he will learn from BR's history, and what he'll learn tracing Dunks and R+L=J stories through the weirnet, the foolish things people do for love, the line he recalls everytime he remembers Jaime's push.

[Brute of Bracken]

I do accept Jaime did a crime by letting his bastard usurp the throne - I think because of his love for Cersei. But what do you expect him to do now for redemption? Betray his family?

If he was a real monster, he wouldn't have been capable of reflecting on what he has become. - Which doesn't detract from his evil, but the war was not solely his doing, there was Varys and LF with their own little games. The war was coming, Jaime and not, and these two brought it about knowingly and willingly. They are the real monsters, with not a shadow of redeeming qualities.

I don't know if you can say Varys has no redeeming qualities without fully knowing his motives.

Jaime does plenty of honorable things in the story - mostly when Cersei is not involved:

1. Saved King's landing

2. Saved Brienne

3. Tried to Keep his word to Cat to return her daughters

4. Scolds the Kingsguard for beating Sansa - meaning he would have likely stopped it had he been there

5. Was the only member of Aerys' Kingsguard to see the hypocrisy of the vows

And he does all this when the whole realm believes he has no honor. So he isn't doing this for the sake of what other people think of him - I think he is actually a good man.

That is not to say that he has done no crimes. I think his blind love for Cersei is the root cause of all his horrific deeds. Even in his love, he was honorable in his own way by not sleeping with anyone else. He has now finally wisened up to Cersei - and I think he will do no more evil acts. Isn't that what matters?

[The Maiden Fair]

Jaime has no honor :)

Well, there's still that horse. I'll believe he has no chance to turn his life into something decent when that particular symbol of redemption is cut down, and only Glory remains. If it happens the other way, I think we'll know what road he's on.

Losing the hand that slayed the king was a solid start to this path. It's narrow and sometimes he's bound to stumble. No one remakes themselves overnight, especially when an entire country will not let you forget how you are viewed. He knows he was wrong and that his choices are often cruel and self-serving, but he can and does still feel regret over this.

But, I Want to Believe that Jaime can find atonement. There are some serious trials coming his way, and if he can make it through the crucible before him, maybe some of that foulness can be burned away. We won't or can't know until George gives us more to work with but I feel he is setting Jaime up to be an eventual hero, either as a martyr or in some other way.

Or maybe SH will hang him. Not really out of character for Martin to set up an arch like this and then burn it all down.

[LordStoneheart]

chrisdaw, so Bran will forgive Jaime because he'll grow up one day and learn that love sex makes people do stupid things like attempt murder? Gotcha. completely understandable. I assume you're a supporter of Rhaegar and Lyanna then?

[Minsc]

chrisdaw, so Bran will forgive Jaime because he'll grow up one day and learn that love sex makes people do stupid things like attempt murder? Gotcha. completely understandable. I assume you're a supporter of Rhaegar and Lyanna then?

I especially enjoy how this insight will led him to forgive the man that made so he couldn't experience such sexual love to the fullest

[Brute of Bracken]

chrisdaw, so Bran will forgive Jaime because he'll grow up one day and learn that love sex makes people do stupid things like attempt murder? Gotcha. completely understandable. I assume you're a supporter of Rhaegar and Lyanna then?

Bran may never forgive Jaime, but he may understand his actions. Even Ned does.

If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

[The Wolves]

Had Jaime not slept with Cersei and fathered those three bastards, and had Cersei actually given Robert an heir, they schemers would have a lot less fuel to start the war. Pray tell, how does LF start the war if Cersei has a boy with the Baratheon looks? What rumor can he spread? Stannis cuckolds Robert and is the father? No one would believe it. Same with Renly. Varys would be doing his Targaryen/Blackfyre stuff anyway, but that has not really come into play in the first three books.

Blanket statements like "x caused war" may not be much of a help, but no one is so wet with Lannister love that they could deny Jaime and Cersei were the biggest factor in starting this war.

This!!!

I don't get how Jaime is absolved of any blame to what thousands maybe millions have suffered all because he makes jokes and in a sexual jealous rage dismisses Cersei.

Let's not forget that he cared so much about his sister, children and thousands that he and Cersei had sex in an unfamiliar environment hoping the chance that anyone besides Bran could find them. Or having sex right besides Robert.

He also joked about fighting war calling it "the war for Cersei's cunt"

On any given whim form Cersei he would have killed Robert starting a war between Baratheons and Lannisters.

Also while traveling through a war torn country and seeing first hand the effects of war on Westeros he thinks that it's time to tell the world about him and Cersei and wants to have another son together thinking "we fought one war for the throne we can do it again" disregarding the suffering, deaths, pain, and everything else for selfish reasons.

He doesn't give two decks about his children.

The only reason he stops messing with Cersei is because she is having sex with other men not because she's bad for the realm and psychotic but because of his sexual jealousy.

Yep still a monster.

[Minsc]

Bran may never forgive Jaime, but he may understand his actions. Even Ned does.

It is cute that Ned thinks Jaime cares for his kids

[Brute of Bracken]

It is cute that Ned thinks Jaime cares for his kids

He certainly did care for Cersei, who certainly would have been executed had Robert found out.

[Cameron]

eh, honor is kind of meaningless, overall. obviously opinions are going to vary widely on the acceptability of his redemption, but it seems to me his choice to follow brienne when she said she needed him rather than cercei was meant to show the final proof of change, if not redemption

[Brute of Bracken]

Yep still a monster.

Why would a monster do any of the five things I listed above? Jaime has his vices, but he is certainly not without redeeming qualities

[chrisdaw]

chrisdaw, so Bran will forgive Jaime because he'll grow up one day and learn that love sex makes people do stupid things like attempt murder? Gotcha. completely understandable. I assume you're a supporter of Rhaegar and Lyanna then?

You're confusing my view on it with what I believe to part of Bran's arc. I believe Jaime deserves to die for attempted child murder, but that's neither here nor there, it's Bran's judgement that matters and it's the way GRRM is lining up the ducks. It gives relevance to Bran's feelings for Meera, the line "the things I do for love" and ultimately this cornerstone passage.

"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."

Bran will look through Jaime's eyes, understand the situation Jaime was in, and having seen what others have done for love and considering what he himself would do (or has done) for love will not be able to bring himself to kill Jaime.