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Joffrey was NOT worse than Aerys


Kaguya

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I still don't know what we are discussing here.



Which was a "worst person"? "worst king"? "worst human being?".



I already pointed out the reasons why Joffrey was worst than Aerys, based only on their madness and how they handle their rules despite that. And Joffrey got worst.



Even if we discount talking in terms of "good" and "evil" and we consider them simply as "mad", there is proof of Joffrey actually enjoying torturing and hurting others just for the sake of it. Aerys, as far as I remember, has never being shown to hurt someone to get something in exchange. And he didn't burn people so he would feel sexually aroused: that was a consequence of him dealing with his over-the-top punishment, which sadly, ended up bad for Rhaella.



What I feel is that OP wants us to believe that Aerys was worst. Some of his actions yes, they were worst, but that's because he was in the late state of his madness and he was realising he was losing the war. Also, he lost his son and heir to the head of the rebellion, meaning, he KNEW it was all lost. Joffrey asked people to get killed just because one of them offended him. I'm not justifying anybody's actions, I'm trying to explain them in the most objective way I can.



Joffrey was a worst King


Joffrey was a worst human being


Joffrey's madness -if he actually had one- was worst than Aerys'.


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I still don't know what we are discussing here.

Which was a "worst person"? "worst king"? "worst human being?".

I already pointed out the reasons why Joffrey was worst than Aerys, based only on their madness and how they handle their rules despite that. And Joffrey got worst.

Even if we discount talking in terms of "good" and "evil" and we consider them simply as "mad", there is proof of Joffrey actually enjoying torturing and hurting others just for the sake of it. Aerys, as far as I remember, has never being shown to hurt someone to get something in exchange. And he didn't burn people so he would feel sexually aroused: that was a consequence of him dealing with his over-the-top punishment, which sadly, ended up bad for Rhaella.

What I feel is that OP wants us to believe that Aerys was worst. Some of his actions yes, they were worst, but that's because he was in the late state of his madness and he was realising he was losing the war. Also, he lost his son and heir to the head of the rebellion, meaning, he KNEW it was all lost. Joffrey asked people to get killed just because one of them offended him. I'm not justifying anybody's actions, I'm trying to explain them in the most objective way I can.

Joffrey was a worst King

Joffrey was a worst human being

Joffrey's madness -if he actually had one- was worst than Aerys'.

So because he was aroused by fire that excuses him raping Rhaella? Not understanding your "he only went sadistic for revenge" logic because it doesn't add up.

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So because he was aroused by fire that excuses him raping Rhaella? Not understanding your "he only went sadistic for revenge" logic because it doesn't add up.

If you want to turn my posts into some kind of rape allegory, you're not going to be very successful because that's not what I am doing. Try something smarter if you want to "take me there".

Was Aerys violent? Yes. Was he violent towards Rhaella? According to Jaime (Feast) they avoided each other for years, except when Aerys burned someone. We do know he liked to burn things, and he loved the pyromancers but Jaime says it very clear: he visited Rhaella ONLY when he burnt a man, and as far as I remember, he has never burnt a man without a provocation. So, his love for the fire had nothing to do with his "visits" to the Queen. He didn't want fire so he could feel sexually stimulated. Him hurting Rhaella was a consequence of his actions AFTER he decided someone should die for fire.

How many people has Aerys actually got burnt? I can't tell, but as far as I remember, we only know two of them: Rickard and Chelsted. If there are more, please, remind me. Because he had reasons to kill them both: Rickard demanded a trial and Chelsted told him he was wrong.

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If you want to turn my posts into some kind of rape allegory, you're not going to be very successful because that's not what I am doing. Try something smarter if you want to "take me there".

Was Aerys violent? Yes. Was he violent towards Rhaella? According to Jaime (Feast) they avoided each other for years, except when Aerys burned someone. We do know he liked to burn things, and he loved the pyromancers but Jaime says it very clear: he visited Rhaella ONLY when he burnt a man, and as far as I remember, he has never burnt a man without a provocation. So, his love for the fire had nothing to do with his "visits" to the Queen. He didn't want fire so he could feel sexually stimulated. Him hurting Rhaella was a consequence of his actions AFTER he decided someone should die for fire.

How many people has Aerys actually got burnt? I can't tell, but as far as I remember, we only know two of them: Rickard and Chelsted. If there are more, please, remind me. Because he had reasons to kill them both: Rickard demanded a trial and Chelsted told him he was wrong.

I don't think we have an exact number, but on his wiki it says he would burn "people he suspected as enemies" frequently. And I wasn't trying to turn your posts into anything, don't worry.

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THEY AREN'T.

Seriously, if they are actually Aerys' bastards, that would make the story a bit lame. They're crazy because they came from the crazy guy. It's more interesting to see how Cersei was always useless, and she's turning more like Aerys without actually being of his blood.

Yes exactly Cersei is very much as crazy as Aerys. read her chapter in FFC when she burns the tower of the hand if anyone does not believe me. But it's funny because she is not Aerys daughter, she was made that crazy by her own father and her own ambition. And it will be even funnier when it is revealed that Tyrion is actually the son of Aerys, as he shows no signs of madness in that way.

And I think it also debunks the 'Targ madness' thing a little bit, yes Targs can be mad, but so can anyone else. They dont own the rights to 'madness' in the 7K.

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So because he was aroused by fire that excuses him raping Rhaella? Not understanding your "he only went sadistic for revenge" logic because it doesn't add up.

It's not an excuse.

You know that the debate is to settle who is the worst scum, right? Whoever wins, the other is still scum that the world is well rid of.

I think Joffrey was going to be much worse once handed the full reins of power. I also think he was a worse human being because I believe he was more in control of his actions. We have sources saying that Aerys got more paranoid and batshit crazy as he aged but that he was an adequate king at the start of his reign. With modern medecine, we might have found he suffered from any number of afflictions that could explain his psychosis and mood swings (untreated syphylis comes to mind). If this was a trial, his lawyer might attempt a credible case for an insanity plea as he had clearly lost touch with reality by the end. Not so with Joffrey. He was not the picture of mental health, but he was not crazy in the conventional sense and he bear more responsibility for his actions, IMO.

Anyway, wondering which of these two is worst is like asking yourself if you would rather die burned alive or flayed. Hum. Tough choice. A solid case could be made that it's better to die on a pyre, that does not make it an appealing option!

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How many people has Aerys actually got burnt? I can't tell, but as far as I remember, we only know two of them: Rickard and Chelsted. If there are more, please, remind me. Because he had reasons to kill them both: Rickard demanded a trial and Chelsted told him he was wrong.

To be fair, if his reasons to burn two powerful men were that thin, it's likely he burned more people!

Martin spells a lot of thing out for us, but he can't spell out EVERYTHING. These books would be twice as bigs as they already are.

Still, it seems unlikely that a pyromaniac like Aerys would have only burned two persons, both either at the start of or after the start of the rebellion. He was already known as Mad since before the rebellion, if I'm not mistaken. There has to be some reason for it. It's likely his previous victims were not important lords like a Stark and a Galsted, though. This saga is primarily told from the POV of nobles and we're usually informed primarily of what concerns them.

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Aerys was going to burn the city when everything was already lost. As I said before, even in his madness, there is some sort of "logic" behind his actions. We don't have that with Joffrey, he hurts for the sake of it.

Going back to this (haven't been in here in awhile), Joffrey does have a reason, at least as far as I can tell. He orders/performs these actions to be feared, which he equates with the respect he needs to rule. He's a sick puppy, and clearly gets joy out of it, but there's an underlying reason as well.

As far as I'm concerned, Aerys, Joffrey, and Ramsey are all at absolute 0 in terms of goodness. It's impossible to get worse than absolute zero (at least to my understanding of physics). I contend that all three are just as bad as each other, none better, none worse.

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Ah, Suzanna that where you are wrong...Cresei & Jamie are Aerys' children...remember paraphasing here 'Tywin would be wroth if he knew how far Aerys went with "Kings Right" and Joanna'.....

Well we will find out one day I guess. IMO there is far more evidence for Tyrion than the twins.

Can you find the actual quote you were paraphrasing? IIRC that's not really how it goes. Barristan says that Aerys took 'liberties' on the wedding night, and that Aerys mentioned it was a shame the rights of 'first night' had been abolished. But that's as far as it went. There is no way someone besides Tywin slept with his new bride on their wedding day, that makes no sense in the reality of a wedding and bedding.

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Well we will find out one day I guess. IMO there is far more evidence for Tyrion than the twins.

Can you find the actual quote you were paraphrasing? IIRC that's not really how it goes. Barristan says that Aerys took 'liberties' on the wedding night, and that Aerys mentioned it was a shame the rights of 'first night' had been abolished. But that's as far as it went. There is no way someone besides Tywin slept with his new bride on their wedding day, that makes no sense in the reality of a wedding and bedding.

Here: (I agree, the idea Aerys had sex with Joanna during the Bedding Ceremony is....odd, to say the least)

“As you command.” The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”

To me this means Aerys was too touchy-feely during the Bedding, possibly groping and fondling Joanna more than is customary

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Here: (I agree, the idea Aerys had sex with Joanna during the Bedding Ceremony is....odd, to say the least)

To me this means Aerys was too touchy-feely during the Bedding, possibly groping and fondling Joanna more than is customary

yeah that's exactly what I think. he was grabbing her goodies enough to make Tywin pissed and so much so that some other people noticed it at least. But no way did he actually....get it on with her that night.

Side note: Can you imagine Tywin being 'bedded' by a group of women at court?? LOL.

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Ah, Suzanna that where you are wrong...Cresei & Jamie are Aerys' children...remember paraphasing here 'Tywin would be wroth if he knew how far Aerys went with "Kings Right" and Joanna'.....

I can't wait til woiaf comes out and fully debunks this once and for all...

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yeah that's exactly what I think. he was grabbing her goodies enough to make Tywin pissed and so much so that some other people noticed it at least. But no way did he actually....get it on with her that night.

Side note: Can you imagine Tywin being 'bedded' by a group of women at court?? LOL.

Some beddings are hilarious to imagine:

Ned Stark

Tywin

Stannis

Baelor Targaryen

I can't wait til woiaf comes out and fully debunks this once and for all...

It will come out and people will keep doubting it under the premise that "it's just that GRRM doesn't want to spoil himself, it's not conclusive!".

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To be fair, if his reasons to burn two powerful men were that thin, it's likely he burned more people!

Martin spells a lot of thing out for us, but he can't spell out EVERYTHING. These books would be twice as bigs as they already are.

Still, it seems unlikely that a pyromaniac like Aerys would have only burned two persons, both either at the start of or after the start of the rebellion. He was already known as Mad since before the rebellion, if I'm not mistaken. There has to be some reason for it. It's likely his previous victims were not important lords like a Stark and a Galsted, though. This saga is primarily told from the POV of nobles and we're usually informed primarily of what concerns them.

Actually Tyrion hints that Joffrey is not very smart at all intellectually in the first book (Couldn't count past 6) so perhaps he had some mental deformity going on too, whether it had impact on his sadism or not is the question.

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I can't wait til woiaf comes out and fully debunks this once and for all...

I CANNOT WAIT!!!!!I have a strong feeling there will be answers about Aerys and Joanna come October. I'm really excited :) But yes I would like the twins are Targs theory to be put down, so we can all discuss real stuff.

Some beddings are hilarious to imagine:

Ned Stark

Tywin

Stannis

Baelor Targaryen

It will come out and people will keep doubting it under the premise that "it's just that GRRM doesn't want to spoil himself, it's not conclusive!".

Yeah lol, those beddings would only be fun if those guys were roaring drunk and in a good mood, otherwise I imagine some very awkward moments.

Yeah I am sure some ppl will continue to argue moot points, but all of us with reading comprehension will know some more definite answers coming up soon. That's all I want is some friggin answers, even if I am wrong about things, I would rather know!!

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Actually Tyrion hints that Joffrey is not very smart at all intellectually in the first book (Couldn't count past 6) so perhaps he had some mental deformity going on too, whether it had impact on his sadism or not is the question.

'Couldn't count past 6'? That was a jest from Tyrion, not an indication that Joffrey literally can't count past 6.

Joffrey is no Genius, but he's 12 to 13 during the saga and acts like it (if you add spoiled rotten and cruel to the mix).

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