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Joffrey was NOT worse than Aerys


Kaguya

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I believe that the statement about the promising aspect of his reign is correct.

Afterall it was him that chose Tywin, and it appears that in the beginning, their dynamic was strong and had good results.

Le Déluge

Tywin as Richelieu, Colbert, LeTelier or DeLionne, or the SK himself?

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I don't see Joffrey as a real tyran like Aerys at the end of his life. I think that we see in aCoK and aSoS that he has very little power really. He is just a kid. But older he would be worse. I think it is also telling that Renly, who knows his nephew quite well, also think that he can be controlled. In my opinion, Joffrey could still be raised to be 'okay'.

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Aerys's actions were mainly brought on by paranoia. Not completely mind you, his abuse of his wife had nothing to do that, but quite a bit of it had to do with a fear of something like Duskendale succeeding, and he seemed quite popular among the smallfolk.





Joffrey on the other hand, did what he did purely because he enjoyed it, and because it gave him a sense of power.



If it hadn't been for the purple wedding and Tywin's restraints, he would have quickly outdone Aerys.


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yes, Aerys did worse things than Joffrey in his later years. He turned mad.

Joff started out mad. There should be no doubt that Joff would have been worse had he lived.

I don't wanna get into the classic "Nature vs nurture" argument here but Tywin clearly believed it was Cersei who corrupted Joffrey and that's why he wanted to send her away. How do we know Tywin wouldn't have straightened him out?

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Ares's actions were mainly brought on by paranoia. Not completely mind you, his abuse of his wife had nothing to do that, but quite a bit of it had to do with a fear of something like Duskendale succeeding, and he seemed quite popular among the smallfolk.

Joffrey on the other hand, did what he did purely because he enjoyed it, and because it gave him a sense of power.

Did you miss the fact that Aerys had a fetish for watching people burn? That's more than just paranoia.

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Tywin as Richelieu, Colbert, LeTelier or DeLionne, or the SK himself?

By SK I assume you refer to the Sun King?

I think that both Tywin and Aerys are arrogant enough to be compared to Louis and his attitude.

Aerys deciding to burn the city, instead of simply committing suicide, just shows the extent of his arrogance.

Tywin did prove how important he was to Aerys by refusing to take part in the war and the Hands that replaced were insufficient, but in the end he won nothing. At some point he is convinced that Tyrion is his punishment for his arrogance.

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I don't wanna get into the classic "Nature vs nurture" argument here but Tywin clearly believed it was Cersei who corrupted Joffrey and that's why he wanted to send her away. How do we know Tywin wouldn't have straightened him out?

Something was really wrong with Joffery mentally I doubt any cruel lesson or advise Tywin gave to him would have helped him, probably be more calculating and cruel but straighten him out, nope.

And I doubt Joffery could be controlled once he got full power come his 16th birthday. Tyrion had it right getting out of dodge before Joffery had full power.

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@T.C. Joffrey murdered a cat and tore out it's fetuses before the age of twelve. I don't know how much clearly GRRM needs to be to show that it is definitely nature. Joffrey was insane by nature

..or by 11, anyways. I agree GRRM seems to be reaching for the textbook with Joff.

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I am also wondering if it is right to assume that Aerys was uncontrollable, whereas Joffrey could be controlled, to a certain extent.

Myrcella, Tyrion did stood up against Joffrey, Tywin and Kevan didn't seem particularly excited at the prospect of serving Aerys III.

The tragedy at Summerhall, meant that there was noone left to control Aerys, apart from Rhaella, who was unable to stop him...

I just realised how sorry I feel for poor Rhaella :(

I don't really agree. There might have always been jealousy towards Tywin on Aerys part, but he appointed him and must have trusted his judgement. His descent into madness, from what we know, begins after Duskendale. He might have been impulsive in going there himself, but at that point he was still a good monarch.

Aerys' descent into madness and Viserys' make me wonder if the "crazy" Targaryens are born as such, or just more susceptible to it after traumatic experiences. (Not all of the Targaryens - just those that were "mad".) Viserys might have shown signs of it in his youth, but that could be a boy following his father's example. He originally cared for Dany, and she seems to recall him becoming cruel the longer his exile went on. Perhaps that trauma sparked his madness.

Joffrey, on the other hand, showed signs of being a sociopath from the start, and there's nothing to suggest that Tywin would have been able to control him. Tommen, aye, but not Joffrey.

I feel bad for Aerys and Rhaelle in the sense that they were forced to marry by Aegon V, when he - and his sons - married for love. More so for her due to the abuse she suffered, but being forced into the marriage can't have been good for either.

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I don't really agree. There might have always been jealousy towards Tywin on Aerys part, but he appointed him and must have trusted his judgement. His descent into madness, from what we know, begins after Duskendale. He might have been impulsive in going there himself, but at that point he was still a good monarch.

Aerys' descent into madness and Viserys' make me wonder if the "crazy" Targaryens are born as such, or just more susceptible to it after traumatic experiences. (Not all of the Targaryens - just those that were "mad".) Viserys might have shown signs of it in his youth, but that could be a boy following his father's example. He originally cared for Dany, and she seems to recall him becoming cruel the longer his exile went on. Perhaps that trauma sparked his madness.

Joffrey, on the other hand, showed signs of being a sociopath from the start, and there's nothing to suggest that Tywin would have been able to control him. Tommen, aye, but not Joffrey.

I feel bad for Aerys and Rhaelle in the sense that they were forced to marry by Aegon V, when he - and his sons - married for love. More so for her due to the abuse she suffered, but being forced into the marriage can't have been good for either.

This is why I said to a certain extent.

Arys in regards to Myrcella, mentions that

Nothing daunted her, not even Joffrey

Sansa and Sandor, manipulated Joffrey into sparing the life of Ser Dontos.

Tyrion did stop him from abusing Sansa.

I am not saying that it was easy or that in the longterm Joffrey could be disciplined, but there are a few occasions when the judgement of others prevailed.

Aerys allowed Dontos to live, because Barristan, the man who had rescued him, asked him to.

As for Viserys, I do believe that at the aftermath of RR he was shocked and had to carry the burden of being a king-in-exile-while-an-usurper-sat-on-his-throne but I can't help thinking what Barristan told Dany in SOS:

“Some truths are hard to hear. Robert was a… a good knight… chivalrous, brave… he spared my life, and the lives of many others… Prince Viserys was only a boy, it would have been years before he was fit to rule, and… forgive me, my queen, but you asked for truth… even as a child, your brother Viserys oft seemed to be his father’s son, in ways that Rhaegar never did.

“His father’s son?” Dany frowned. “What does that mean?” The old knight did not blink.

“Your father is called ‘the Mad King’ in Westeros. Has no one ever told you?”

“Viserys did.” The Mad King. “The Usurper called him that, the Usurper and his dogs.” The Mad King. “It was a lie.”

“Why ask for truth,” Ser Barristan said softly, “if you close your ears to it?” He hesitated, then continued. “I told you before that I used a false name so the Lannisters would not know that I’d joined you. That was less than half of it, Your Grace. The truth is, I wanted to watch you for a time before pledging you my sword. To make certain that you were not…” “…my father’s daughter?” If she was not her father’s daughter, who was she?

“…mad,” he finished. “But I see no taint in you.”

So Barristan, who has met and lived and served under other Targaryens, not only mentions a taint, but he was unwilling to serve Viserys and had to ensure that Dany wasn't like her in order to serve her.

I believe that Viserys always cared for Dany, in his own perverted way

Apparently, even before RR, Viserys exhibited unpleasant traits, unlike Rhaegar.

Duskendale and Varys simply unleashed the beast that was known as Aerys Targaryen.

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I don't really agree. There might have always been jealousy towards Tywin on Aerys part, but he appointed him and must have trusted his judgement. His descent into madness, from what we know, begins after Duskendale. He might have been impulsive in going there himself, but at that point he was still a good monarch.

Aerys' descent into madness and Viserys' make me wonder if the "crazy" Targaryens are born as such, or just more susceptible to it after traumatic experiences. (Not all of the Targaryens - just those that were "mad".) Viserys might have shown signs of it in his youth, but that could be a boy following his father's example. He originally cared for Dany, and she seems to recall him becoming cruel the longer his exile went on. Perhaps that trauma sparked his madness.

Joffrey, on the other hand, showed signs of being a sociopath from the start, and there's nothing to suggest that Tywin would have been able to control him. Tommen, aye, but not Joffrey.

Agreed. Aerys started out as a good king with a promising rule of peace and plenty. We're not sure exactly what triggered the downward spiral, but we can at least theorize that had the conditions of his rule been better controlled (ie. Better intentioned advisors) and had he not given pause to the prophecy, he may have turned out just fine and never given in to paranoia and psychopathic behaviors. Maybe.

Joffrey, on the other hand, was born a sociopath. He killed a cat by cutting it open while pregnant to see the kittens inside of it. He had no respect for life and did as he pleased. He had Ned executed when Cersei and Tywin would both have preferred his exile to the Wall, or have we forgotten that? He had the "main character's" head chopped off because he felt like it. Sounds like Aerys later days, no? And this from a TEENAGER. I have no doubt in my mind that no one could have stood up against Joffrey had he lived and continued to rule.

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I don't really agree. There might have always been jealousy towards Tywin on Aerys part, but he appointed him and must have trusted his judgement. His descent into madness, from what we know, begins after Duskendale. He might have been impulsive in going there himself, but at that point he was still a good monarch.

Aerys' descent into madness and Viserys' make me wonder if the "crazy" Targaryens are born as such, or just more susceptible to it after traumatic experiences. (Not all of the Targaryens - just those that were "mad".) Viserys might have shown signs of it in his youth, but that could be a boy following his father's example. He originally cared for Dany, and she seems to recall him becoming cruel the longer his exile went on. Perhaps that trauma sparked his madness.

Joffrey, on the other hand, showed signs of being a sociopath from the start, and there's nothing to suggest that Tywin would have been able to control him. Tommen, aye, but not Joffrey.

I feel bad for Aerys and Rhaelle in the sense that they were forced to marry by Aegon V, when he - and his sons - married for love. More so for her due to the abuse she suffered, but being forced into the marriage can't have been good for either.

Traumatic experiences don't suddenly give you a fetish to burn people alive and have orgasms while doing so.. Why are you all ignoring this? The excuses being thrown on Aerys side are just strange.

Yes, Joffrey was a terrible terrible person (although personally i feel that even his mother is worse) but none the less Aerys was a monster beyond belief.

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I think both were awful and deserved to be removed from the throne. I think an argument about who was worse is like arguing about whether Ted Bundy was better than Charles Manson.


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Well, considering that Joffrey cut up a pregnant cat to see her kittens when he was just a little kid, I'm going to have to disagree. He may have been even worse if he had grown up. That said, Aerys was one sick bastard and the way he treated Rhaella was horrible.

Okay i'm a big animal lover. But how does killing a cat weigh against burning people and using torture devices on them? And again with the "if he had grown up" - We don't know what would have happened because it didn't happen..

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Okay i'm a big animal lover. But how does killing a cat weigh against burning people and using torture devices on them? And again with the "if he had grown up" - We don't know what would have happened because it didn't happen..

Well some serial killers started with animals so there's that.

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Because killing animals at a young age is often linked with signs of psychopathy. So far, we have no indications that Aerys started out that crazy. Joffrey did. He only would have gotten worse.



As I asserted before, Aerys was a worse person because he had time to descend into madness. But he was a better king than Joffrey because he at least has some good on his record. It shouldn't be a dispute that Joffrey if allowed to grow up would have became way worse than Aerys. Not a baseless or invalid assertion.


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