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Joffrey was NOT worse than Aerys


Kaguya

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Because killing animals at a young age is often linked with signs of psychopathy. So far, we have no indications that Aerys started out that crazy. Joffrey did. He only would have gotten worse.

As I asserted before, Aerys was a worse person because he had time to descend into madness. But he was a better king than Joffrey because he at least has some good on his record. It shouldn't be a dispute that Joffrey if allowed to grow up would have became way worse than Aerys. Not a baseless or invalid assertion.

Tywin has the good on the record, not Aerys. And it is baseless because we don't know what would have turned out. Would have Joffrey just kept killing peasants with his crossbow like he was already doing? Would he have developed more methods of fun? Would have he eventually got bored? All answers that cannot be answered because he died. While on the other hand we have accounts of Aerys raping and abusing his wife, burning people frequently, using torture devices and also attempting to wipe out a population of half a million people. If joffrey had lived he certainly would have had a high standard to achieve.

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Aerys has good on the record as well. if Barristan's praise for the beginning of his reign is not enough, then the random peasant who yearns for the days of Aerys when times were better should be.

Well, to be fair, I am sure there are some random peasants who thought Joffrey was a good King. And some of them probably thought that Joff was the hero of the Blackwater. Not arguing though that Joff was better. Both were pretty bad. Although, yeah, Aerys was kind of a "late bloomer" compared to Joff. But arguing who was worse, I think is kind of pointless.

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Aerys has good on the record as well. if Barristan's praise for the beginning of his reign is not enough, then the random peasant who yearns for the days of Aerys when times were better should be.

How do we know Barristan wasn't lying? He was talking to Daenarys while accounting that, right? And peasants can be turned by propaganda.

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This is why I said to a certain extent.

Arys in regards to Myrcella, mentions that

Sansa and Sandor, manipulated Joffrey into sparing the life of Ser Dontos.

Tyrion did stop him from abusing Sansa.

I am not saying that it was easy or that in the longterm Joffrey could be disciplined, but there are a few occasions when the judgement of others prevailed.

Aerys allowed Dontos to live, because Barristan, the man who had rescued him, asked him to.

As for Viserys, I do believe that at the aftermath of RR he was shocked and had to carry the burden of being a king-in-exile-while-an-usurper-sat-on-his-throne but I can't help thinking what Barristan told Dany in SOS:

So Barristan, who has met and lived and served under other Targaryens, not only mentions a taint, but he was unwilling to serve Viserys and had to ensure that Dany wasn't like her in order to serve her.

I believe that Viserys always cared for Dany, in his own perverted way

Apparently, even before RR, Viserys exhibited unpleasant traits, unlike Rhaegar.

Duskendale and Varys simply unleashed the beast that was known as Aerys Targaryen.

In regards to Viserys, that's sort of what I was meaning. He was his father's son - like many young boys he was influenced by his father. But I don't think that necessarily means that Viserys was already made as a child - his father's actions would have seemed normal. Unlike Rhaegar, he never knew Aerys before his descent into madness.

It doesn't read like he became cold or cruel towards Daenerys until after he sold Rhaelle's crown, when the last of his joy left him (to paraphrase Dany's words). After going through the trauma of losing his parents and princely status, losing his brother and his child, and spending time looking for shelter constantly? It seems me that all that combined was effectively for Viserys what Duskendale was for his father.

I just think it's possible that the supposedly mad Targaryens aren't born crazy, as much as they're more susceptible to descending into madness after traumatic experiences.

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Because killing animals at a young age is often linked with signs of psychopathy. So far, we have no indications that Aerys started out that crazy. Joffrey did. He only would have gotten worse.

As I asserted before, Aerys was a worse person because he had time to descend into madness. But he was a better king than Joffrey because he at least has some good on his record. It shouldn't be a dispute that Joffrey if allowed to grow up would have became way worse than Aerys. Not a baseless or invalid assertion.

Yup. There's a little throwaway line where he killed a deer Tommen had made a pet of, too, and made a jerkin out of it. :crying:

He wasn't as bad as Aerys yet, but would have become as bad or worse in time, as he got older and thought of more and more ways to "amuse" himself. Tyrion reflects that he doesn't even want Joffrey to start thinking about the possibilities of burning people alive. He also had barely reached puberty when he died, and so his sadism would have become more sexual (as it was in the show) as he grew older, had he lived. He took glee in hurting and killing. He only wasn't as bad as Aerys because he died when he was what, 13, 14?

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Yup. There's a little throwaway line where he killed a deer Tommen had made a pet of, too, and made a jerkin out of it. :crying:

He wasn't as bad as Aerys yet, but would have become as bad or worse in time, as he got older and thought of more and more ways to "amuse" himself. Tyrion reflects that he doesn't even want Joffrey to start thinking about the possibilities of burning people alive. He also had barely reached puberty when he died, and so his sadism would have become more sexual (as it was in the show) as he grew older, had he lived. He took glee in hurting and killing. He only wasn't as bad as Aerys because he died when he was what, 13, 14?

Yeah I still don't see it. I don't see Joffrey attempting to burn his entire city down.

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Yeah I still don't see it. I don't see Joffrey attempting to burn his entire city down.

He wouldn't do it with himself in it, because unlike Aerys, he doesn't fantasize that it'll turn him into a dragon. But I could totally see him burning it out of spite if he had an escape route to save his own skin.

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He wouldn't do it with himself in it, because unlike Aerys, he doesn't fantasize that it'll turn him into a dragon. But I could totally see him burning it out of spite if he had an escape route to save his own skin.

He would probably leave and allow it to be sacked but I don't think he would have done what Aerys tried to do (Cersei on the other hand, maybe...)

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I also find Viserys inexcusable too. I don't care what happened to you, you don't treat your sister the way he treated her.

It's not so much as excusing it as understanding why he became the way he did. With her brother and father there seems to be a pattern of traumatic events leading to madness - and that's something Daenerys could learn from, in my opinion.

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It's not so much as excusing it as understanding why he became the way he did. With her brother and father there seems to be a pattern of traumatic events leading to madness - and that's something Daenerys could learn from, in my opinion.

I agree and disagree. There was a genetic pre disposition (the madness?) which was triggered later on. Because like I said, being kidnapped wouldn't suddenly turn a normal person into someone who has a sexual fetish for fire and torture. Still not excusable though.

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In regards to Viserys, that's sort of what I was meaning. He was his father's son - like many young boys he was influenced by his father. But I don't think that necessarily means that Viserys was already made as a child - his father's actions would have seemed normal. Unlike Rhaegar, he never knew Aerys before his descent into madness.

It doesn't read like he became cold or cruel towards Daenerys until after he sold Rhaelle's crown, when the last of his joy left him (to paraphrase Dany's words). After going through the trauma of losing his parents and princely status, losing his brother and his child, and spending time looking for shelter constantly? It seems me that all that combined was effectively for Viserys what Duskendale was for his father.

I just think it's possible that the supposedly mad Targaryens aren't born crazy, as much as they're more susceptible to descending into madness after traumatic experiences.

From what Barristan said, Viserys had the potential of becoming as bad as Aerys, and he was born a year before the Defiance, so he trully didn't knew Aerys as he was pre Duskendale.

Also Rhaella was doing her best to protect Viserys from his father's paranoia. Still this doesn't mean that Viserys was a nice child. He probably did something, before RR that discouraged Barristan from serving him.

On the other hand, in regards to the Targaryen madness, Barristan appears to be convinced.

Even Jaeherys, Aerys' father believed that his family had a taint.

King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness were two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.

Which is quite interesting, especially in regards to Aerys' children.

Viserys found himself in a desperate situation, which appears to have brough in surface all his negative traits.

He appears to lack Rhaegar's skills and he also seems to show contempt and disregard for others.

Ser Willem was wise not to tell Viserys about the marriage pact with Arianne, but as wise and noble Willem was, he didn't manage to be able to control or even trust Viserys.

Arya in COK, found herself in a similar position as Viserys was, and she did manage to survive without becoming mad.

If Rhaegar had found himself in the same situation as Viserys, would he have done the same?

We are told that Rhaegar as a child was different and special, in contrast to Viserys.

When someone compares Dany to Rhaegar, it is a compliment.

At times Dany's entire arc seems to be a struggle between the two sides of the targaryen coin.

The striking different attitudes between siblings is something that we see in other families as well.

Joffrey and Tommen, Domeric and Ramsay are good examples.

The Targaryen madness while it seems to be a way to criticize the Royal Family, it is also based on rather disturbing events.

It just seems odd that even though there are other powerful families in Westeros and Essos, the Targaryens are the ones who are expected to be mad.

Ned mentions that his ancestors were hard and cold, Lysa Arryn was a weak woman who after going through a horrible expereince, went mad, in the WOIAF book it is mentioned that

Spoiler
there was a Tyrion Lannister King of the Rock, who loved to torture women.

More or less we have cases of cruel monarchs and powerful individuals who were mad, but only the Targaryens are expected to inherit madness.

Euron, Aeron and Balon Greyjoy are called mad as well.

Theon Greyjoy appears to be mad, after enduring Ramsay's torture.

Lady Danelle Lothston was called Mad.

Gared was half mad after surviving the fight against the Others.

I guess you could call Arys mad for attacking Areo Hotah and Loras for killing the knights who protected Renly.

In Dorne they say about the Ullers that

Half of the Ullers are half-mad, and the other half are worse

Malora Hightower is called the Mad Maid.

Lots of other people are called mad, although in some cases this seems to be a derogatory term, as in the case of Danelle and Malora.

The Greyjoy madness appears to be linked to their overjealous attempts for glory and independence.

Gared, Theon and Lysa went though horrible situations, which altered them entirely.

I dont't know whether the Targaryen madness actually exists or it is GRRM saying that power corrupts or as Joker said,

“All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That's how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day."

On the other hand, the Targaryens appear to have dragon dreams and in the past they had formed bonds with actual dragons, and I guess this might make them prone to madness.

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Joffrey was way worse.

Aerys ruled for longer than Joff lived, yet we can compare their "stats". Who knows what Joff would have done if he'd lived another thirty or so years?

You answered your own question, who knows? No one because it didn't happen. Leaving us only to compare their stats. I feel like Joff is being overrated here simply because we saw him on screen.

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