Something else at the Tower of Joy?

[lyannaisalive]

Im not sure if this has been discussed and im sure its just wishful thinking, but is it possible Ned hid one of the missing dragon eggs. Now the reason I think it could be possible (however unlikely) is a couple of things and it all hinges on some evidence that is simply assumed could of happened.

Things necessary for this to be plausible:

1. L+R=J

2. Rhaegar had a dragon egg and believed their child to be PTWP.

Now if L+R=J it is assumed Rhaegar believed their child to be the PTWP than its plausible he left the egg at the TOJ because he simply kept their for safe keeping (their were 3 kings guard there) and/or for some reason he thought it should belong to the PTWP. Now Ned arrives with his companions and battles the Kings guard and survives with Howland Reed and when he finds Lyanna he also finds an egg in the tower. Now if all this is true than it is likely that Ned did something with it and I think there are a few options.

1. The egg is in Lyannas crypt in Winterfell. This is the most likely for several reasons. First, Its believed that there are items in Lyanna's crypt that prove Jon is the son of a Targaryen and a dragon egg could be possible evidence. Second, if you were going to hide an egg not many people would assume it would be in Winterfell protected by the Starks (unknowingly by most). Third, Robert says something like "she should be buried on a hill somewhere not buried in a tomb". Of course she is a Stark and does belong in their crypts but another reason is the dragon egg would be a lot safer in a crypt than somewhere that could easily be dug up by grave diggers or for some other reason.

2. It is underneath the remains of the TOJ. He could have simply not wanted it and thought to hide it forever and what better way than underneath the rumble of an old tower.

3. Ned could have sent it with Howland Reed. We know Reed is trusted greatly by Ned as evidence of him taking him to the TOJ to "rescue" Lyanna. Reed is lord of Greywater watch which is not only easily defended by the Crannogmen but literally moves and is very difficult to be found by outsiders thus the Egg would be safe. Another reason is if R+L=J than Lord Reed is most likely aware of it and kept the egg for proof of Jon's true heritage if needed.

Now this is probably wishful thinking on my part not only because I think it would be cool but I think it shows that had he kept the egg Ned was most likely going to tell Jon about his true parentage one day. So now that I have written my crackpot theory what do you think? Plausible? simply unlikely, or simply not possible. Or if you have any different ideas of what he could have done with it id like to hear your ideas.

[House Hendrix of Rock]

I think it will not be a dragon egg but Rheagars Harp for the same reasons you mention

[Lady Woodland]

Well there have been quite a few theories about the mysterious crypts of WF & Lyanna's tomb in particular & what may be there that might provide "proof" of sorts of Jon's true heritage. I have never heard of the possibility of a Dragon Egg before but it's certainly as feasible as anything else anyone has thought up.

The only problem I see with the whole "hiding something in the tomb" thing is that during his life Ned went to extraordinary lengths to ensure Jon's true parentage was never revealed, so I'm not convinced Ned would actually put anything in there at all, but many others are convinced that the truth must come out.

Ned didn't really want Jon to know the truth, he only promises to "talk of his mother" after Jon's at the Wall & safely said his vows. He never thinks about Jon as a contender for the IT, if he did he wouldn't have let him join the NW in the first place. I understand that at the time Robert was alive with three supposed heirs, yet even as Robert is dying & he know's the truth of Cersei & Jaime (and by the way has also lost a lot of respect for Robert during his time as Hand as well) His first thought is that Stannis is now the true heir & he deliberately rewrites Robert's will to demonstrate this. He never ever considers Jon as a king.

This is what drives me nuts about how everyone thinks Jon needs a way out of his vow's so he can be the "rightful thing" I seriously doubt this is GRRM's intention. I think Jon & a few others may find out but he doesn't want it so he doesn't need to prove anything to anyone.

BTW sorry Welcome don't mean to put a damper on your theory the Egg thing is good :cheers:

[lyannaisalive]

I appreciate your honesty. I wasn't necessarily saying that he kept it to prove Jon was a king. A dragon egg is valuable but also a dangerous thing and knowing the kind of man Ned was you could assume if there was an egg that he knew that just leaving it there really wasn't an option so you think he would do something to hide it. And I think Jon joining the NW is really what convinced Ned to talk to Jon about his mother (and while jon thought Ned was his dad assuming Lyanna was his mother than Ned could still refuse to say who his father was) because he would have taken his vows and been sworn to the NW and his possible right to throne really wouldn't have mattered besides its not like they would suddenly tell the world who Jon's parents were.

[Lordsteve666]

By waiting to talk to Jon after he says his vows Ned has made sure there's no way job can go off on some avenging mission to claim the throne, find his mother etc, or whatever the truth may reveal.

Maybe Ned knew Jon was a strong person and would probably go off chasing whatever's revealed to him and Ned doesn't think that would be a good idea.

I mean having the bastard child of the second in command of the rebellion going off to claim his throne believing himself to be a targaryen would be a bit difficult for the Starks to explain! Especially as Ned and Rob are the two who led the whole rebellion to kill the last king!

"Yeah we killed the last king and Rob took his throne, but this kid I've been raising for 15 years is actually the legitimate heir to the targaryen dynasty, who we tried to destroy."

[The Snark of Winterfell]

I think Ned never revealed Jon's past simply bc of Roberts hatred for the Targs, he wanted that family extinct at all costs.

As to the crypts, it's hard to say, my guess is its Dawn which will become lightbringer just because of Dawns description and that we haven't seen that sword. Pure speculation. Jon has had several dreams about the crypts, there is something down there.

[Princess Sand Snake]

I really like the idea of a hidden dragon egg in Lyanna's tomb. IIRC Bran see's something that can, possibly, be described as a white dragon flying up from Winterfell in one of his chapters? I think it was in ADWD, sorry I don't have the book in me atm.

[Starkfaithful85]

i mentioned this theory on some post but mine was because I believe that the egg in TMK was symbolic of targ ancestry and GRRM would use it to prove jon's heritage, mainly bc in one of the D&E stories dunk is reminded by egg that targ kids were given dragon eggs at birth...also what is the significance of the egg that BR took in the story

[Lady Blizzardborn]

We don't really know whether Ned ever intended to tell Jon about his parentage or not. There's no indication either way.

The line about telling Jon about his mother was in the show, not the books. But the books did have Ned being surprised that Jon wanted to join the NW. To me that says that he expected Jon to get married, have kids, all the usual stuff. It doesn't give us a clue about the secret being revealed or not though. Damn it, Ned! Why didn't you think about this before you got killed off? I guess we'll have to wait for Howland Reed to tell us.

Given that we don't know what Lyanna made Ned promise, it's possible that she made him promise to tell her son who his father was someday when he was grown and could keep the secret, and thus stay alive.

[Lady Woodland]

I really like the idea of a hidden dragon egg in Lyanna's tomb. IIRC Bran see's something that can, possibly, be described as a white dragon flying up from Winterfell in one of his chapters? I think it was in ADWD, sorry I don't have the book in me atm.

I know a lot of people really want to see another Dragon especially an Ice Dragon, so in that context a hidden Dragon Egg would make the most logical of things I could think of to support Jon's true status. It bug's the hell out of me that even as Robert was dying, Ned never thinks about Jon's possible claim.

For me it is still the one niggling doubt I have that Jon is R+L. Ned loved Lyanna, & clearly respected Rhaegar even if he didn't know/care/understand the prophecy thing, Lyanna made him make promises, what were "they" that he never thinks Jon deserved a shot at the IT, especially if there was a secret wedding as many posters believe making Jon Legitimate.

Ned didn't really care much for Renly or Stannis so why not reveal Jon's heritage & see him on the IT? Never gives it a second thought in his POV, not "Oh shit I really stuffed up putting Robert on the throne - he was happy when the Targ babies were killed, he's still trying to kill the heirs overseas & to top it off he went & married that evil Lannister woman & now all he has are a bunch of illegitimate bastards & Cersei & Jaime's bastards are his heirs.

What was so wrong with Jon being Lyanna's child that Ned Never considers Jon worthy? Respect for Catelyn? his own children, raising Jon up over them? he's not selfish so it really just annoys me he never seems to give Jon's claim a thought.

Could we be wrong about R+L=J? if it was Aerys who kidnapped & raped Lyanna & framed Rhaegar for the whole thing due to his paranoia/madness, it would actually explain a lot of things about the ToJ & the KG being there & Lyanna dying alone. However it does not really disprove a love story between L&R - what if she was a hostage there? If Jon was Aerys bastard that would go a long way to explain why Ned wouldn't consider Jon worthy either, because his father was a madman.

[BearQueen87]

Well my first question is where did Rhaegar get a dragon egg? So far as we know, he did not have one in his crib as a child. In fact, the last we hear about Targaryen dragon eggs are that Aegon V did...something...at Summerhall, the day Rhaegar was born, and that was the last of them. There were no more dragon eggs on Dragonstone because Stannis would have found them and used them to finance his war, something Cersei points out in one of her POVs in AFFC.

[Ygritte]

I know a lot of people really want to see another Dragon especially an Ice Dragon, so in that context a hidden Dragon Egg would make the most logical of things I could think of to support Jon's true status. It bug's the hell out of me that even as Robert was dying, Ned never thinks about Jon's possible claim.

For me it is still the one niggling doubt I have that Jon is R+L. Ned loved Lyanna, & clearly respected Rhaegar even if he didn't know/care/understand the prophecy thing, Lyanna made him make promises, what were "they" that he never thinks Jon deserved a shot at the IT, especially if there was a secret wedding as many posters believe making Jon Legitimate.

Ned didn't really care much for Renly or Stannis so why not reveal Jon's heritage & see him on the IT? Never gives it a second thought in his POV, not "Oh shit I really stuffed up putting Robert on the throne - he was happy when the Targ babies were killed, he's still trying to kill the heirs overseas & to top it off he went & married that evil Lannister woman & now all he has are a bunch of illegitimate bastards & Cersei & Jaime's bastards are his heirs.

What was so wrong with Jon being Lyanna's child that Ned Never considers Jon worthy? Respect for Catelyn? his own children, raising Jon up over them? he's not selfish so it really just annoys me he never seems to give Jon's claim a thought.

Could we be wrong about R+L=J? if it was Aerys who kidnapped & raped Lyanna & framed Rhaegar for the whole thing due to his paranoia/madness, it would actually explain a lot of things about the ToJ & the KG being there & Lyanna dying alone. However it does not really disprove a love story between L&R - what if she was a hostage there? If Jon was Aerys bastard that would go a long way to explain why Ned wouldn't consider Jon worthy either, because his father was a madman.

I think part of Ned's cryptic regrets is the fact that he can't support Jon's claim. At that point, the Baratheons are well and truly entrenched and taking up Jon's banner would start a war. (One started anyway, but he didn't know yet that it would.) I think part of the promise was to protect Jon from the Baratheon faction, and starting a war on his behalf--without even running it by him first--wouldn't really qualify as protection. He does reflect that he wants to talk to him when he gets sent to the Wall, and we don't know what about. He never gets the chance.

(To argue against this, there's an argument that letting him join the NW is also not protecting him. To counter that, I'll mention that most nobles don't see the NW as all that dangerous as the novels begin. See Tyrion's "there are no grumkins and snarks" speech. It's considered boring more than dangerous. And it includes an oath to not wear crowns, which would handily put a roadblock in the path of anyone who found out the secret somehow and tried to crown him.)

Basically, Ned chose Jon's safety over Jon's claim, and feels like crap about it on some level.

[The Bastard of Walton]

It says in GOT that only the Kings in the North & Lords of Winterfell are buried in the crypts & that Ned broke that tradition because of his love for his sister. That's why I truly believe something is in Lyanna's tomb that proves Jon's heritage. His dreams about the crypts make me thing something very important is waiting for him down there, whether a Dragons egg, the Harp, some will or a Targ Valryian sword we'll have to wait to see.

[lyannaisalive]

Well my first question is where did Rhaegar get a dragon egg? So far as we know, he did not have one in his crib as a child. In fact, the last we hear about Targaryen dragon eggs are that Aegon V did...something...at Summerhall, the day Rhaegar was born, and that was the last of them. There were no more dragon eggs on Dragonstone because Stannis would have found them and used them to finance his war, something Cersei points out in one of her POVs in AFFC.

Thats why I said he would have to have a dragon egg for it to be plausible so this is on the assumption he had one. I think it's possible he was smart and if dedicated enough could spend time looking for one of the eggs. Stannis didn't take DS until after Rhaegars death so its possible it was found before that and Dragon Stone has been around for hundreds of years, i'm sure the Targs had secret locations on the island.

[Lady Woodland]

It says in GOT that only the Kings in the North & Lords of Winterfell are buried in the crypts & that Ned broke that tradition because of his love for his sister. That's why I truly believe something is in Lyanna's tomb that proves Jon's heritage. His dreams about the crypts make me thing something very important is waiting for him down there, whether a Dragons egg, the Harp, some will or a Targ Valryian sword we'll have to wait to see.

Sorry I have to disagree about breaking with tradition, certainly the loyal servant's some vassal's & Lady were buried in the Lichyard cemetery but the Crypts are for all the Stark's, I can't remember the chapter or passage but I think it's Bran when he goes down with Osha he show's her the empty tombs ahead for his family, he just only mentions the men. Also Ned clearly say's "She was a Stark of Winterfell this is her place"

I do agree the crypts are important though, I was just on another thread discussing how Jon & Theon might be having sort of two parts of a shared dream about the Crypts, really interesting, then of course there's Lady Barbery & Mance both pretty certain something's down there besides tunnels.

[BearQueen87]

Thats why I said he would have to have a dragon egg for i to be plausible so this is on the assumption he had one. I think it's possible he was smart and if dedicated enough could spend time looking for one of the eggs

Maybe. The problem seems to be that the dragon eggs have all vanished from the west. Even the ones Illyrio gives to Dany came from the "shadow lands beyond Asshai"

And if Rhaegar first considered Aegon, his son by Elia, to be TPTWP (as Aemon tell us) why does he not give Aegon the dragon egg? He might have stopped believing that Aegon was TPTWP once he realized Aegon could not have the song of ice and fire (since Elia isn't ICE at all) but that revelation most likely came later.

So the following things would need to be possilbe

1) find a dragon egg when no eggs appear to exist as of Summerhall in the West

2) either decide not to give it to Aegon OR give it to Aegon and then take it back when he realizes Aegon isn't going to be TPTWP

[lyannaisalive]

Maybe. The problem seems to be that the dragon eggs have all vanished from the west. Even the ones Illyrio gives to Dany came from the "shadow lands beyond Asshai"

And if Rhaegar first considered Aegon, his son by Elia, to be TPTWP (as Aemon tell us) why does he not give Aegon the dragon egg? He might have stopped believing that Aegon was TPTWP once he realized Aegon could not have the song of ice and fire (since Elia isn't ICE at all) but that revelation most likely came later.

So the following things would need to be possilbe

1) find a dragon egg when no eggs appear to exist as of Summerhall in the West

2) either decide not to give it to Aegon OR give it to Aegon and then take it back when he realizes Aegon isn't going to be TPTWP

Is it possible he bought an egg of someone? Euron had an egg maybe Rhaegar baught or took it from him and swore him to secrecy (not probable but my point is anything could have happened) Rhaegar has virtually unlimited resources

[BearQueen87]

Is it possible he bought an egg of someone? Euron had an egg maybe Rhaegar baught or took it from him and swore him to secrecy (not probable but my point is anything could have happened) Rhaegar has virtually unlimited resources

It's possible Rhaegar bought an egg, yes.

Euron had an egg, but Euron was also traveling Planetos. The egg in question was from a Myrish wizard, so the question becomes where did the Myrish wizard get the egg. Euron also "threw it into the sea" during one of his "dark moods." (or...paid off the Faceless Men to kill Balon..who knows).

So for Rhaegar to obtain a dragon egg from a trader, the trader would most likely becoming from the East. The Free Cities and Westeros do trade, so maybe one of the Eastern Traders had it (though how Rhaegar knew about it is a question). If not a near East trader, than someone from Asshai. But very few people from that part of Planetos travel to Westeros.

ETA: I also think there is something to be said about would a trader keep silent about selling a dragon egg (which we understand to be exceedingly rare) to the Heir Apparent? Even if everyone dismissed them as rumors, the rumors would still circulate. "Prince Rhaegar bought a dragon egg!"

[lyannaisalive]

It's possible Rhaegar bought an egg, yes.

So for Rhaegar to obtain a dragon egg from a trader, the trader would most likely becoming from the East. The Free Cities and Westeros do trade, so maybe one of the Eastern Traders had it (though how Rhaegar knew about it is a question). If not a near East trader, than someone from Asshai. But very few people from that part of Planetos travel to Westeros.I

I'm sure any smart person with an egg would know that the Targaryen's would pay well for an egg so it's possible someone came to him and he just kept it a secret.

[BearQueen87]

I'm sure any smart person with an egg would know that the Targaryen's would pay well for an egg so it's possible someone came to him and he just kept it a secret.

Ok, but why the Prince? Why not King Aerys? Did the trader seek out the Targ prince? How? Did he deliver a message? Did no one notice a Targaryen prince and a Eastern Merchant trader visiting with one another? How did that secret stay a secret--things rarely stay a secret in this world for very long. And why should Rhaegar trust the merchant? What if he's being fleeced? Would he want to inspect the dragon egg himself or perhaps take it to a maester? Would the Maester keep silent?