Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Winds spoiler The Tattered Prince is confirmed to be in the Yunkai.camp. He betrays them, kills the Yunkish Supreme Commander and takes the Windblown over to.Barristan's side. Tatters himself is named directly by the Yunkish, and they would know if it was a "false" Tatters. So the corpse in Meereen cant possibly.be the Tattered Prince Thanks, I couldn't check the chapter myself, and my memory failed me on that detail.So, Tatters is still alive.. and thus the dead prince is Quentyn.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Thanks, I couldn't check the chapter myself, and my memory failed me on that detail. She may be misinforming you. IIRC, the actual sequence of events is as follows. Tyrion 2 [1] 2 dragons are visible. [2] Then: Only Rhaegal is in the sky. Viserion has disappeared!! [3] Then: Tyion has a meeting in a tent. Somewhere, something happens that Tyrion cannot see. [4] Then: Tyrion receives news Yunkish are swearing vengeance on the Tattered Prince. Brown Ben slays the Yunkish commander bringing this news, and they switch sides. Anyone who has the App handy, please feel free to confirm or deny these details, or add to them. But my understanding is that we know very little about Tatters reappearance. The argument that Tatters can't be Quentyn because the Yunkish (of all people) would know the difference is contrary to everything we know. The whole setup with Tatters is that his tattered cloak is the ONLY distinctive thing about him, to the point where all he need do is take of his tattered cloak and almost nobody knows who he is. This setup was set up for a purpose, of course ... we are just waiting for the other foot to drop. So, Tatters is still alive.. and thus the dead prince is Quentyn.. Well, it may be that SOMEONE is alive, and wearing a tattered cloak. But that's expected. Remember Renly at the Blackwater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 This is the problem when magic is used in any kind of fiction. Or any kind of trope used more than two times. We start seen it EVERYWHERE. Quentyn Martell is dead. Why? Because his plan was to steal a dragon and he failed. His plan had nothing to do with faking his own death and then, run away with a dragon. We have his own p.o.v. He realises he's starting to burn, and screams. QUENTYN screams. Have we seen people being burnt by the dragons? Yes. Has anybody escaped from such burning? No. You can simply throw water at them and hope they're ok. Quentyn was dead as soon as Rhaegar attacked him, and his own friends got themselves hurt trying to help him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 So, if I can summarize: Quentyn is roasted by dragonfire, but since he is of Targaryen descent he carries the fire immunity (or at least, non fatality) gene. Then he escapes with Viserion while Drink and Yron pretend that the TP, who has been burned, is Quent. I will file this in the "possible, but unlikely folder" for the following reasons: Why would Drink and Yron want to pretend Quent is dead? The news will be devastating to Dorne and could even lead to the violent overthrow of Prince Doran since he was the one who came up with the crazy scheme in the first place. Why would Quent want to fake his own death? If he has Vis under control, why not simply emerge as the new baddest ass on the battlefield? And if Dany, their mother, could not tame the dragons despite having born and raised them from stone, how could Quent manage to do it on the second meeting? Also, are we to assume that the fire consumed him so completely that there was no way to tell the difference between a 60-year-old man and a 19-year-old boy? But pay no attention to those who cry for "proof" at the mention of every theory. If there was plain proof in the text, there would be no reason to discuss it. As we've seen too many times in the past, unless someone is standing there one minute and is clearly and unequivocally dead the next, don't jump to the conclusion that they are really dead. And even if they are, there's no ironclad rule in ASIOF that they stay dead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Quentyn Martell is dead. Why? Because his plan was to steal a dragon and he failed. It is just as easy to say: "Quentyn Martell is alive. Why? Because his plan was to steal a dragon, and he succeeded." His plan had nothing to do with faking his own death and then, run away with a dragon. No. But it is easy to see why he and/or his friends, would conceal the fact that he was alive, when the opportunity presented itself. To let anyone know what he is up to is to paint a huge bullseye on his chest. He realises he's starting to burn, and screams. QUENTYN screams. And GRRM spent alot of time setting up how panicky Quentyn is about burning. To first SEE that he is burning, and THEN start to scream, without first having felt any pain, is surreal. Have we seen people being burnt by the dragons? Yes. Has anybody escaped from such burning? No. You forgot Dany. Except for the screaming, her situation is almost exactly parallel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 It is just as easy to say: "Quentyn Martell is alive. Why? Because his plan was to steal a dragon, and he succeeded." He hasn't succeeded. Drogon is with Dany. Viseryon and Rhaegal are free causing chaos, according to WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Why would Drink and Yron want to pretend Quent is dead? To cover for him. If no-one knows he is alive, no-one will seek him out. If anyone knows he is alive, half will want to stop him, and the other half will want to kill him. He is taming a dragon. That's big! Currently, Barristan's policy, and everyone else's policy, is to leave Viserion alone. What would they do if they knew Quentyn was in their with him, and making progress? If you are building the atom bomb, you don't let enemy planes know the location of your laboratory. Why would Quent want to fake his own death? If he has Vis under control, why not simply emerge as the new baddest ass on the battlefield? You are assuming total, instant, success. Perhaps Quent and Viserion need to spend some quality time together. You are also assuming that Quentyn suffered no injuries whatsoever, and has no need to rest and heal. And if Dany, their mother, could not tame the dragons despite having born and raised them from stone, how could Quent manage to do it on the second meeting? Again, there is no need to assume total, instant success. But how long do you want to wait before another dragon gets a rider? Until Book 9? In GRRM's prequel stories of the first Dance of the Dragons, it appears that a number of dragonriders managed to bond with their dragons fairly quickly. Also, are we to assume that the fire consumed him so completely that there was no way to tell the difference between a 60-year-old man and a 19-year-old boy? Based on the description of the burnt man -- i'd say yes. What do you think the difference would be? And no-one was trying particularly hard to tell the difference. The only one who had the stomach to spend any time with the poor bloke was an 11-year old girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Drogon is with Dany. Viseryon and Rhaegal are free causing chaos, according to WoW. Is that an argument? All 3 dragons are free. All 3 dragons hunt alone. Dany spends most of her time in Drogon's lair. Quentyn (according to the theory) is in Viserion's lair (his pyramid). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Song so Sweet Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 ChillyPolly Good for you for defending your argument that Quentyn could be alive. However I think if a dragon was "stolen", Barristan would know, or someone from their side would know and would tell Barristan. Also Gerris and Archie are lying to Barristan... why? as if he is not going to eventually find out that a dragon is missing and that the Tattered Prince changed appearence? Or are they hoping to escape before the lie is revealed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 ChillyPolly Good for you for defending your argument that Quentyn could be alive. However I think if a dragon was "stolen", Barristan would know, or someone from their side would know and would tell Barristan. Barristan DOES know that Viserion is free, and that he has taken up his lair in an abandoned pyramid. The only thing he does not know, according to the theory, is that the pyramid is not completely abandoned ... that Quentyn is there. Also Gerris and Archie are lying to Barristan... why? To give Quentyn time. To heal. To fully bond with Viserion. If Barristan knew, he might try to stop him. Dany invited Quentyn to try to tame a dragon, but only Dany knew about this and Dany is gone. And they don't know where Barristan's loyalties lie. Dany's husband wanted the dragons dead, and would have doubled his efforts if he thought they were being tamed. as if he is not going to eventually find out that a dragon is missing and that the Tattered Prince changed appearence? Any idea of impersonating the tattered prince will develop fairly late, as the opportunity presents itself. Or are they hoping to escape before the lie is revealed? I don't think hope of escape enters into it. They probably assumed their lie would be exposed fairly quickly ... until they realized Tatters had died without anyone knowing the difference. They are just covering for Quentyn ... to give him time ... to bond with Viserion and achieve sufficient control to be able to defend himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Ghost- Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 She may be misinforming you. IIRC, the actual sequence of events is as follows. Tyrion 2 [1] 2 dragons are visible. [2] Then: Only Rhaegal is in the sky. Viserion has disappeared!! [3] Then: Tyion has a meeting in a tent. Somewhere, something happens that Tyrion cannot see. [4] Then: Tyrion receives news Yunkish are swearing vengeance on the Tattered Prince. Brown Ben slays the Yunkish commander bringing this news, and they switch sides. Anyone who has the App handy, please feel free to confirm or deny these details, or add to them. But my understanding is that we know very little about Tatters reappearance. The argument that Tatters can't be Quentyn because the Yunkish (of all people) would know the difference is contrary to everything we know. The whole setup with Tatters is that his tattered cloak is the ONLY distinctive thing about him, to the point where all he need do is take of his tattered cloak and almost nobody knows who he is. This setup was set up for a purpose, of course ... we are just waiting for the other foot to drop. Well, it may be that SOMEONE is alive, and wearing a tattered cloak. But that's expected. Remember Renly at the Blackwater. Viseriosn doesn't disappear, he is flying around snatching the bodies being thrown and eating. There is no mention that the Tattered Prince was the one that killed the Yunkish guy though. It just says that he was cut down by Pentoshi treachery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Viseriosn doesn't disappear, he is flying around snatching the bodies being thrown and eating. I recall that. And then, IIRC, he withdraws from the sky ... or at least is no longer visible to Tyrion, who can still see Rhaegal Then, IIRC, Tyrion has a meeting in a tent ... and presumably NEITHER dragon is visible. Then we hear news that something serious may have happened involve Tatters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinchanging Sweetrobin Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 The "Quentyn is dead" camp should come up with an explanation for why Arch and Drink are acting funny."Quentyn is dead; deal with it" is not an argument and neither is "Arch and Drink aren't acting funny." They are clearly acting funny- Drink is showing grief when we are specifically told that he doesn't normally show grief.Thematically, the Meereen story opens with "burnt bones prove nothing." So, it hard for me to not think about that phrase when I think about a body burnt beyond recognition at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Just checked the text of Tyrion II (Winds of Winter sample chapter): The last we hear of Viserion, in Tyrion 2, is that he has returned to his lair (ie. the pyramid). This is even better for the theory. It is exactly where one would expect him to rejoin with Quentyn. Then Tyrion enters a tent. It is shortly after that that we hear that "The Prince of Tatters" has done something to cause the Yunkish to swear vengeance against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Seed Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I hope he's dead. I'm getting sick and tired of people living and/or getting resurrected when they should be dead.Enough already. Kill the fucker and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Enough already. Kill the fucker and move on. Let him fly his dragon to Westeros with Dany. Then kill the fucker. That's what I call moving on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I'll quote Ellaria Sand. "They will not see. I can hear no more of this." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 She may be misinforming you. IIRC, the actual sequence of events is as follows. Tyrion 2[1] 2 dragons are visible.[2] Then: Only Rhaegal is in the sky. Viserion has disappeared!![3] Then: Tyion has a meeting in a tent. Somewhere, something happens that Tyrion cannot see.[4] Then: Tyrion receives news Yunkish are swearing vengeance on the Tattered Prince. Brown Ben slays the Yunkish commander bringing this news, and they switch sides. Anyone who has the App handy, please feel free to confirm or deny these details, or add to them. But my understanding is that we know very little about Tatters reappearance. The argument that Tatters can't be Quentyn because the Yunkish (of all people) would know the difference is contrary to everything we know. The whole setup with Tatters is that his tattered cloak is the ONLY distinctive thing about him, to the point where all he need do is take of his tattered cloak and almost nobody knows who he is. This setup was set up for a purpose, of course ... we are just waiting for the other foot to drop. Well, it may be that SOMEONE is alive, and wearing a tattered cloak. But that's expected. Remember Renly at the Blackwater. Quentyn was 18 years old, Tatters past 60. His men aren't capable of seeing the difference then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuem Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Nah he is in the crypts of winterfell playing poker with robb stark,aerys,,Viserys Arys Oakheart was there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Quentyn was 18 years old, Tatters past 60. His men aren't capable of seeing the difference then?This.To be quite honest this is getting tiresome. Stubbornly denying the text does not.make for good discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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