Do we need Jon's Point of View?

[LittleItalian91]

So TV producers should give him more significance in the television series, but They leave him at the edge of the story. They don't consider the Strangers, do you think they will consider Jon? I don't think it. I hope to get wrong, but in the next season Jon will lose significance in the story.

[MoseStark*]

So TV producers should give him more significance in the television series, but They leave him at the edge of the story. They don't consider the Strangers, do you think they will consider Jon? I don't think it. I hope to get wrong, but in the next season Jon will lose significance in the story.

You are talking about Jon in the TV Series, but this topic is about Jon in the books, where he is in a fairly different place than he is in the series. Jon will not lose his significance in the series because his story is not to told, neither is it in the books. Jon's storyline in the series is not as far as it is in the books, they need to tell his story from ADWD and a part of his storyline in ASOS, they need to tell this, so Jon won't los his significance in the series, if the producers stay true to the sources from te book. Also the producers know things about Jon we do not know, only they and GRRM know these things, so you can say Jon will stay important, because those things (most importantly Jon's parentage) need and will be told. You say because Jon stayed at the Wall there wasn't much importance in his storyline this season, but how can you see that with the Battle of the Wall? I'd say that was one of the main storylines this season and if Jon hadn't been at the Wall, be wouldn't have seen that... So I don't understand what you mean, actually.

On topic: we need Jon at the Wall. His POV has been one of the most important POV's from the whole series, he has shown us the danger behind the Wall and how life in the Night's Watch goes. Of course, Mel is there, but she does not focus on the Watch, merely on her own religion and on Stannis. We need Jon, but I wonder how we get to see him next book.

[Black Crow]

Cos he aint dead yet...

[LittleItalian91]

I'm reading first book at the moment. i didn't understand you were talking about Jon's character of the book. I'm sorry.

I think Jon is a flat characters. He don't change in the course of the story. I agree with you when you said that the Wall was important and Jon too, but he isn't a introspective character like Tyrion's character or Sansa's character... He is equal from beginning at the end.. So, How can he have importance his point of View?

[sj4iy]

I'm reading first book at the moment. i didn't understand you were talking about Jon's character of the book. I'm sorry.

I think Jon is a flat characters. He don't change in the course of the story. I agree with you when you said that the Wall was important and Jon too, but he isn't a introspective character like Tyrion's character or Sansa's character... He is equal from beginning at the end.. So, How can he have importance his point of View?

Not true at all. He changes quite a bit in the first book, the second book and the last book, going from hot-tempered spoiled brat to a confused boy struggling with honor and love to a leader who does what is necessary, no matter the cost. Just because he doesn't do anything horrendous like killing his lover and father or being in a sexual relationship with his sister doesn't mean that he's not a complex character or that he doesn't have significant character growth. I honestly don't see how Sansa's character grows very much to the point we are at in the books. She goes from dependent on others and trying to stay alive to...dependent on others and trying to stay alive. She's had more character growth in the show than she has had in the books, tbh.

You don't have to like his character, but he most definitely is nothing like he was in the beginning of the story. And he's way, way too important to the story to get rid of his POV.

[Black Crow]

I think part of the problem here is in focusing on the Game of Thrones. That is just one, albeit important, aspect of the much wider Song of Ice and Fire

[sj4iy]

I think part of the problem here is in focusing on the Game of Thrones. That is just one, albeit important, aspect of the much wider Song of Ice and Fire

Very true. I admittedly didn't care for the Wall storyline at first, but once we got into the meat of it, with the Others and the Wildlings, I realized that it was extremely important and that the Wot5K was putting Westeros in great danger, since they were focused on the wrong enemy. I'm hoping that the plotline in Essos plays a larger part in the story's resolution, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it will at this point. Guess we'll wait and see.

[MoseStark*]

Very true. I admittedly didn't care for the Wall storyline at first, but once we got into the meat of it, with the Others and the Wildlings, I realized that it was extremely important and that the Wot5K was putting Westeros in great danger, since they were focused on the wrong enemy. I'm hoping that the plotline in Essos plays a larger part in the story's resolution, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it will at this point. Guess we'll wait and see.

The Essos storyline will eventually go to Westeros, I think. In my opinion the Ice and Fire are Dany's dragons and the cold behind the Wall. There will come a clash between Dragons and Others, or that's what I think is going to happen. The War of the Five Kings has been so important in Westeros that everything else is forgotten and just when the realm is stabilizing again, Aegon lands on the shores, so there will come another civil war. I think they will albe too busy with stuff south of the Wall to recognise the danger that lies beneath it, so Stannis, The Watch and the Wildlings will be the only ones who can fight what's behind it, untill the Essos storyline comes to Westeros. And we need Jon's storyline to cover everything that happens at the Wall until Dany and other people in the storyline will come to Westeros.

[sj4iy]

The Essos storyline will eventually go to Westeros, I think. In my opinion the Ice and Fire are Dany's dragons and the cold behind the Wall. There will come a clash between Dragons and Others, or that's what I think is going to happen. The War of the Five Kings has been so important in Westeros that everything else is forgotten and just when the realm is stabilizing again, Aegon lands on the shores, so there will come another civil war. I think they will albe too busy with stuff south of the Wall to recognise the danger that lies beneath it, so Stannis, The Watch and the Wildlings will be the only ones who can fight what's behind it, untill the Essos storyline comes to Westeros. And we need Jon's storyline to cover everything that happens at the Wall until Dany and other people in the storyline will come to Westeros.

Well, I'm thinking that Jon will be much, much more important and involved than being a simple bystander. We know that Dany and her dragons will be important in the war, yes- but we also know that Stannis isn't AAR...but we have a lot of evidence that Jon is. The books have practically beat us over the head with references to Jon being a King, and we've seen Melisandre's visions and her remark that she wants to see Azor Ahai and only sees Snow. So yeah, I don't see any possible way for his POV to be cut from the books at this point. He's too important to the endgame.

[Black Crow]

So it'll be a bit of a bummer from your viewpoint if Jon turns out to be the King of Winter and his antagonist is Azor Ahai?

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

Well, I'm thinking that Jon will be much, much more important and involved than being a simple bystander. We know that Dany and her dragons will be important in the war, yes- but we also know that Stannis isn't AAR...but we have a lot of evidence that Jon is. The books have practically beat us over the head with references to Jon being a King, and we've seen Melisandre's visions and her remark that she wants to see Azor Ahai and only sees Snow. So yeah, I don't see any possible way for his POV to be cut from the books at this point. He's too important to the endgame.

Either Jon is a King, or he's a Corncob. So spake the ravens. :devil:

There's no possible way Stannis is important to the endgame and Jon isn't, and I don't understand that thinking. Breaking the story down to the most simple terms, two families have been given beasts as avatars. Starks and Targaryens. That's not a coincidence.

[sj4iy]

So it'll be a bit of a bummer from your viewpoint if Jon turns out to be the King of Winter and his antagonist is Azor Ahai?

Yeah, that's not happening. If he doesn't turn out to be AAR, so be it, but there's no way that Jon will lead the Others. That's just silly and makes absolutely no narrative sense given everything we've seen so far. I wouldn't be bummed so much as stunned that something so utterly ridiculous had happened.

[MoseStark*]

Well, I'm thinking that Jon will be much, much more important and involved than being a simple bystander. We know that Dany and her dragons will be important in the war, yes- but we also know that Stannis isn't AAR...but we have a lot of evidence that Jon is. The books have practically beat us over the head with references to Jon being a King, and we've seen Melisandre's visions and her remark that she wants to see Azor Ahai and only sees Snow. So yeah, I don't see any possible way for his POV to be cut from the books at this point. He's too important to the endgame.

I hope so. I like Jon and I want him to be more than a bystander, if your theory is true and their is a chance it is, this will be very interesting to see how things wil go at the Wall. Especially a clash between the others and Jon. Jon's storyline has interested me from the beginning because he has so much potential and there are so many ways his journey can go, and we still don't know which road he will eventually take and where this road will lead him, that's why it is interesting to see so many theories about Jon, in all those theories can be found something really likely from the end of the story, but we will see in the end. I'm very curious about Jon's storyline, more than other storylines...

[Black Crow]

Yeah, that's not happening. If he doesn't turn out to be AAR, so be it, but there's no way that Jon will lead the Others. That's just silly and makes absolutely no narrative sense given everything we've seen so far. I wouldn't be bummed so much as stunned that something so utterly ridiculous had happened.

Really? If the white walkers are Craster's sons, they're not an invading army and what's going on beyond the Wall is a lot more complicated than it appears. It may turn out that its not going to be a matter of the dragons saving Westeros from the Others, but of the Others saving Westeros from the dragons.

[sj4iy]

Really? If the white walkers are Craster's sons, they're not an invading army and what's going on beyond the Wall is a lot more complicated than it appears. It may turn out that its not going to be a matter of the dragons saving Westeros from the Others, but of the Others saving Westeros from the dragons.

I think this is reaching and completely unsupported by anything we've seen in the text. I've seen the theory in different variations, but the fact remains that nothing we've read or seen has any evidence of them being anything but evil. Every history, legend and account of them shows that they are not 'misunderstood'...and of course, we have the fact that we'e seen them slaughter innocent people, then reanimate the corpses to slaughter more people. We have the Night's King, who was committing sacrifices for years until he was taken down. We have the CotF, who would not be swayed by any 'fake history', helping to fight them.

I just don't see any compelling evidence that proves any of the above wrong. Nor would Jon become their leader under any circumstances, because even if he were to die, he has the ability to keep his soul intact by warging- unlike the other revenants we've seen. He's not done anything evil or vengeful up to this point, it's simply not believable that he would do so even if he were brought back to life.

I think people simply want this because it's a 'twist' that no one will see coming, and some people want to believe that Martin wouldn't write something as predictable and trope-ish as a big bad that has no shades of grey. But it would make absolutely no sense considering the narrative we've had so far throughout the entire series. It would be a very bad twist as there is nothing suggesting that it would happen under any circumstances.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

I think this is reaching and completely unsupported by anything we've seen in the text. I've seen the theory in different variations, but the fact remains that nothing we've read or seen has any evidence of them being anything but evil. Every history, legend and account of them shows that they are not 'misunderstood'...and of course, we have the fact that we'e seen them slaughter innocent people, then reanimate the corpses to slaughter more people. We have the Night's King, who was committing sacrifices for years until he was taken down. We have the CotF, who would not be swayed by any 'fake history', helping to fight them.

I just don't see any compelling evidence that proves any of the above wrong. Nor would Jon become their leader under any circumstances, because even if he were to die, he has the ability to keep his soul intact by warging- unlike the other revenants we've seen. He's not done anything evil or vengeful up to this point, it's simply not believable that he would do so even if he were brought back to life.

I think people simply want this because it's a 'twist' that no one will see coming, and some people want to believe that Martin wouldn't write something as predictable and trope-ish as a big bad that has no shades of grey. But it would make absolutely no sense considering the narrative we've had so far throughout the entire series. It would be a very bad twist as there is nothing suggesting that it would happen under any circumstances.

I agree with what you say about the history of the Others that we know. I also believe that the theory doesn't fit with the history of the dragons in Westeros. They've been conquerors, yes, but there's little of the history that would support the dragons to be overtly dangerous to the very existence of humanity in Westeros.

[Black Crow]

I think this is reaching and completely unsupported by anything we've seen in the text. I've seen the theory in different variations, but the fact remains that nothing we've read or seen has any evidence of them being anything but evil. Every history, legend and account of them shows that they are not 'misunderstood'...and of course, we have the fact that we'e seen them slaughter innocent people, then reanimate the corpses to slaughter more people. We have the Night's King, who was committing sacrifices for years until he was taken down. We have the CotF, who would not be swayed by any 'fake history', helping to fight them.

I just don't see any compelling evidence that proves any of the above wrong. Nor would Jon become their leader under any circumstances, because even if he were to die, he has the ability to keep his soul intact by warging- unlike the other revenants we've seen. He's not done anything evil or vengeful up to this point, it's simply not believable that he would do so even if he were brought back to life.

I think people simply want this because it's a 'twist' that no one will see coming, and some people want to believe that Martin wouldn't write something as predictable and trope-ish as a big bad that has no shades of grey. But it would make absolutely no sense considering the narrative we've had so far throughout the entire series. It would be a very bad twist as there is nothing suggesting that it would happen under any circumstances.

Aux contraire. We are told in the text that the present generation are Craster's sons - changelings - and so have to look beyond that at the implications. Yes they are mad bad and dangerous to know, but they are like the Bloody Mummers, they are the servants of somebody else and that's where the complication and the greyness comes in.

[LittleItalian91]

According to me, the storyline of Others doesn't consider in the event.. jon Snow is not a spoiled brat but he is a hot tempered and he remains also the same in others books... I agree with you when you say that Sansa confides in others but at least she changes during the story and she learns from other people's mistake to treasure it. Jon always remains stubborn and he always makes his own.

in my opinion, at least others characters make something while he doesn't make nothing. Jon Snow is a overrated characters.

[Arya Targaryen]

According to me, the storyline of Others doesn't consider in the event.. jon Snow is not a spoiled brat but he is a hot tempered and he remains also the same in others books... I agree with you when you say that Sansa confides in others but at least she changes during the story and she learns from other people's mistake to treasure it. Jon always remains stubborn and he always makes his own.

in my opinion, at least others characters make something while he doesn't make nothing. Jon Snow is a overrated characters.

LOL. If there is a character who learns from his mistakes, it's Jon. And he learns quickly.

About the Others: I wonder if there is a way to change Craster's sons back to human, or at least a way of communicating with them. For some reason, I think that by the end of the 7. book the Others will be sorted out for good. But how will you defeat them completely? But if there is a way of changing them back, the problem is solved. Or (according to the show) you must only deal with that horny WW-guy and his "council" or whatever is was.

[sj4iy]

Aux contraire. We are told in the text that the present generation are Craster's sons - changelings - and so have to look beyond that at the implications. Yes they are mad bad and dangerous to know, but they are like the Bloody Mummers, they are the servants of somebody else and that's where the complication and the greyness comes in.

Actually, we are not told that in the text. We only know that Craster gives his children to the Others in the text. The rest comes from the show.

But no, I don't see any redemption for the WW, whatever rank they are. I doubt there's any way the change them back.