Do we need Jon's Point of View?

[sj4iy]

It is true that he is only POV at the Wall ( if also there is Sam like another POV ). I don't agree that he changes in the first books; he makes nothing to improve his skills. he remains of his idea and it doesn't change. In the fifth book i can agree with you, because Jon starts understanding something and he also becomes Lord Commander and so he has to change needs..

His change in the first book has nothing to do with skills...his personality changes. He's a spoiled, entitled brat when he first comes to the Wall. When Noye calls him a bully, he's humbled and starts to help his fellow brothers instead of looking down on them. He then has to wrestle with an extremely hard decision...to stay with the Night's Watch or desert to help his brother. He's intent on the latter until Mormont presses him with the truth of the matter- the Night's Watch needs him more than his brother does. Jon's journey doesn't really have anything to do with his skills, it's about him going from a boy to a leader of men.

[Arya Targaryen]

It is true that he is only POV at the Wall ( if also there is Sam like another POV ). I don't agree that he changes in the first books; he makes nothing to improve his skills. he remains of his idea and it doesn't change. In the fifth book i can agree with you, because Jon starts understanding something and he also becomes Lord Commander and so he has to change needs..

I don't think Jon changes much in the fifth book though I agree there he starts to understand the true meaning of the NW vows, and acts accordingly. He is devoted to his duty, and not the NW, by the end, which can be called a change. However, why most people started to admit he indeed is improving only by ADWD, is because this is the book, where Jon has the power to act on his own, he is not under orders from superior officers, where he has to do whatever he is told. Practically he is the only main character who cannot do anything on his own from AGOT to ASOS, because he isn't supposed to: however, he listens and adapts and learns. I love his time with the wildlings, because that is a place he actually learns a lot: about a different culture, that was supposed to be his enemy, and yet they are just the same sort of men as in the south: good, bad alike. I see why Arya and Tyrion (and Bronn) are far more likeable: because they don't give a fuck and have funny one-liners. But a soldier in a military organization can't go around and do whatever he pleases: Jon is only allowed to do that when he becomes commander. That is however is not a change in his character. It is a change in his situation. His character changed and developed and matured throughout book1-3, so that he is able to take command in book5. And even there when he has to make hard decisions, he has space to develop even further.

[Juliet Burke]

Yes, of course. Absolutely yes

[LittleItalian91]

His change in the first book has nothing to do with skills...his personality changes. He's a spoiled, entitled brat when he first comes to the Wall. When Noye calls him a bully, he's humbled and starts to help his fellow brothers instead of looking down on them. He then has to wrestle with an extremely hard decision...to stay with the Night's Watch or desert to help his brother. He's intent on the latter until Mormont presses him with the truth of the matter- the Night's Watch needs him more than his brother does. Jon's journey doesn't really have anything to do with his skills, it's about him going from a boy to a leader of men.

In the first book, he isn't spoiled or entitled brat, he is a insecure boy. His brothers love him and his father too but your stepmother Catelyn doesn't love him. She hates there boy that he is the symbol of Edd's treason. So, how can he be a spoiled?

When he also arrived at the Wall he was insecure, Noye calls him bully because he derives from a noble family not because he is spoiled. And he needs his brothers because he hasn't had a mother... And he remains the same for three books.. But it is important that he doesn't be able to take a decision. Maybe at the end of the third book he start to understand what he has to do and thereby he wakes up. And the street to be a leader it is a longer.

[sj4iy]

In the first book, he isn't spoiled or entitled brat, he is a insecure boy. His brothers love him and his father too but your stepmother Catelyn doesn't love him. She hates there boy that he is the symbol of Edd's treason. So, how can he be a spoiled?

When he also arrived at the Wall he was insecure, Noye calls him bully because he derives from a noble family not because he is spoiled. And he needs his brothers because he hasn't had a mother... And he remains the same for three books.. But it is important that he doesn't be able to take a decision. Maybe at the end of the third book he start to understand what he has to do and thereby he wakes up. And the street to be a leader it is a longer.

He is spoiled and entitled. He thinks he's good enough to go with his Uncle when they went ranging. He doesn't even realize that the kids he is beating have never even held a sword. Sure, he's insecure...but he's spoiled, too.

[Bran17]

TBH, no, he doesn't.
But people like him(the reason for that is beyond me, still I don't hate him at all), so they won't accept the hard truth. :cool4:

Anyway, GRRM seems to like the character, which means his death is almost certain to be false or reversed in some way. The foreshadowing was almost unnecessary and it's not the reason why I believe he's gonna come back: it could very well be some kind of red herring to get people certain about his return(If that was the case, Martin succeeded...).

[The King in Black]

Yup. This is like saying daenerys can be assumed dead because we have 3 povs in Meereen. The important ones never die.

[LittleItalian91]

He is spoiled and entitled. He thinks he's good enough to go with his Uncle when they went ranging. He doesn't even realize that the kids he is beating have never even held a sword. Sure, he's insecure...but he's spoiled, too.

why do you say he is spoiled? I don't understand. He can be everything but not spoiled

[sj4iy]

why do you say he is spoiled? I don't understand. He can be everything but not spoiled

He was raised in a castle and given everything that his brothers were- an education, training in arms, horseriding, plenty of food, etc. Yet he doesn't even realize this because he brews on the fact that he's a bastard to some people. Well, he gets to Castle Black, and he's better than all of the others training with him, and he acts like it, too. Then Noye sits him down and tells him that the kids who are there with him could never have afforded a sword, or any of the comforts he enjoyed growing up in a castle as a Lord's child. Jon realizes this and is ashamed because he acted above all those around him, hence his nickname of "Lord Snow". I mean, he's 14 at the time, too, so it's not unexpected, and he grows out of it.

[JonBranRickon]

Spoiled no - insecure yes. IMO Jon's plight is a common one and totally to be expected until he goes ranging and becomes a man.

[sj4iy]

Spoiled no - insecure yes. IMO Jon's plight is a common one and totally to be expected until he goes ranging and becomes a man.

Agree to disagree, then. I see him as a spoiled brat when he arrives, who expects to be a ranger immediately simply because she's better than the farmboys around him. I think he's insecure, as well, but not about his skills.

[LittleItalian91]

He was raised in a castle and given everything that his brothers were- an education, training in arms, horseriding, plenty of food, etc. Yet he doesn't even realize this because he brews on the fact that he's a bastard to some people. Well, he gets to Castle Black, and he's better than all of the others training with him, and he acts like it, too. Then Noye sits him down and tells him that the kids who are there with him could never have afforded a sword, or any of the comforts he enjoyed growing up in a castle as a Lord's child. Jon realizes this and is ashamed because he acted above all those around him, hence his nickname of "Lord Snow". I mean, he's 14 at the time, too, so it's not unexpected, and he grows out of it.

He grew up in this way because Ned has wanted that he grew up in this way. but he always was different compared to his brothers, because he is anyway a bastard and Catelyn hates him. he has been more lucky compared to other bastards, but it doesn't want to say that he is spoiled. When he arrives at The Black Castle, he is insecure of the choice that he has taken. and the others call him " Lord Snow " because he has got luck to grow up in a noble family and especially to grow up like a lawful son. even if he is 14, he isn't spoiled.

[JimZipCode]

it doesn't come from the show but from the book:

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

What matters is Jon's mother and Maester Aemon's declaration that:

"You are a son of Winterfell, a nephew of Benjen Stark. It must be you or no one."

Where are these quotes from? I'd like to re-read them, and the context.

[JimZipCode]

I agree with you when you say that Jon is important to the story, but he has done nothing until now. ...he is a static character in the first books.

???

• Jon leaves his family and the only home he has ever known, to join the Nights Watch. That's a bigger, more dramatic step than any of his siblings take, at least before Ned's death.

Jon twice changes his view of his Black Brothers, both times at Tyrion's urging. First, Tyrion tells Jon that the Watchmen are mostly thieves and rapists and the like, and Jon eventually stops romanticising them. Then Tyrion tells Jon that they are mostly lowborn kids who have never trained with weapons, and Jon stops beating his brothers and starts teaching them. When's the last time any of the other Stark kids changed their mind about anything? Robb? Arya? Sansa had her romantic notions beaten out of her, but that wasn't due to insight.

Jon kills Qhorin and goes "undercover" with the Wildlings. That's pretty major.

Jon falls in love with Ygritte. You might say that Jon was essentially passive here; Ygritte was the aggressor, and Jon had to go along to keep his cover intact. I agree, that was true at first: but he does fall in love with her.

Jon leaves Ygritte, and the other Wildlings, and returns to the Nights Watch.

Jon rise to the position of Lord Commander.

Jon makes unpopular but shrewd decisions, like sending Sam away to forge his chain, and negotiating a loan with the Iron Bank.

Jon breaks centuries, generations of tradition by letting the Wildlings settle south of the Wall. He completely redefines the mission of the Nights Watch, or more accurately returns them to their roots: men are their allies, the Others are their enemies. This is such a profound break with tradition that it provokes a mutiny.

He's done nothing? Really? I would have said that Jon was the most active character in the books, or tied with Dany.

[JimZipCode]

I see why Arya and Tyrion (and Bronn) are far more likeable: because they don't give a fuck and have funny one-liners. But a soldier in a military organization can't go around and do whatever he pleases: Jon is only allowed to do that when he becomes commander. That is however is not a change in his character. It is a change in his situation. His character changed and developed and matured throughout book1-3, so that he is able to take command in book5. And even there when he has to make hard decisions, he has space to develop even further.

This. Spot on.

[sj4iy]

Where are these quotes from? I'd like to re-read them, and the context.

The second one is Jon VIII, A Storm of Swords.

[Black Crow]

The second one is Jon VIII, A Storm of Swords.

Indeed, its Maester Aemon telling Jon that he must take command.

As to the first, its at Craster's place after the mutiny. Things are going to Hell and Sam is sitting on the floor cradling the dying Mormont:

“I’m not frightened anymore. Of you, or…anything.”

“You should be,” said a woman’s voice.

Three of Craster’s wives were standing over them. Two were haggard old women he did not know, but Gilly was between them, all bundled up in skins and cradling a bundle of brown and white fur that must have held her baby. “We’re not supposed to talk to Craster’s wives,” Sam told them. “We have orders.”

“That’s done now,” said the old woman on the right.

“The blackest crows are down in the cellar, gorging,” said the old woman on the left, “or up in the loft with the young ones. They’ll be back soon though. Best you be gone when they do. The horses run off, but Dyah’s caught two.”

“You said you’d help me,” Gilly reminded him.

“I said Jon would help you. Jon’s brave, and he’s a good fighter, but I think he’s dead now. I’m a craven. And fat. Look how fat I am. Besides, Lord Mormont’s hurt. Can’t you see? I couldn’t leave the Lord Commander.”

“Child,” said the other old woman, “that old crow’s gone before you. Look.”

Mormont’s head was still in his lap, but his eyes were open and staring and his lips no longer moved. The raven cocked its head and squawked, then looked up at Sam. “Corn?”

“No corn. He has no corn.” Sam closed the Old Bear’s eyes and tried to think of a prayer, but all that came to his mind was, “Mother have mercy. Mother have mercy. Mother have mercy.”

“Your mother can’t help you none,” said the old woman on the left. “That dead old man can’t neither. You take his sword and you take that big warm fur cloak of his and you take his horse if you can find him. And you go.”

The girl don’t lie,” the old woman on the right said. “She’s my girl, and I beat the lying out of her early on. You said you’d help her. Do what Ferny says, boy. Take the girl and be quick about it.”

“Quick,” the raven said. “Quick, quick, quick.”

“Where?” asked Sam, puzzled. “Where should I take her?”

“Someplace warm,” the two old women said as one.

Gilly was crying. “Me and the babe. Please. I’ll be your wife, like I was Craster’s. Please, ser crow. He’s a boy, just like Nella said he’d be. If you don’t take him, they will.”

“They?” said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed “They. They. They.”

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

[Wanderful]

 

I'm reading first book at the moment. i didn't  understand you were talking about Jon's character  of the book. I'm sorry. 

I think Jon is a  flat characters. He don't change in the course of the story. I agree with you when you said that the Wall was important and Jon too, but he isn't a introspective character like Tyrion's character or Sansa's character... He is equal from beginning at the end.. So, How can he have importance his point of View?

 

Even in the first book, Jon does change....he becomes self aware and slowly shows signs of leadership. Notable moments being his conversation with Noye about his condescending attitude and the way he rallies the guys to protect Sam. Jon is THE definition of "introspective". He's probably the reason why he doesnt pop so much on the tv series since so much of his jokes, musings,observations are internal. But maybe you need to read all of the books to get a better grasp of Jon's character and fully appreciate the importance of the Wall, the Others and the Wildlings. 

 

To the topic at hand.....GRRM has had multiple POVs in one location before,not sure why it has to change. Of course, while Jon is recovering, he could upgrade one of the supporting players to a POV. I wouldnt be surprised if we see Bowen Marsh for one chapter, Tormund for another, etc. And of course, I would love to see more of Mels' POV. She's such a polarizing, dynamic character. I find her journey and her readings fascinating. 

[sj4iy]

Even in the first book, Jon does change....he becomes self aware and slowly shows signs of leadership. Notable moments being his conversation with Noye about his condescending attitude and the way he rallies the guys to protect Sam. Jon is THE definition of "introspective". He's probably the reason why he doesnt pop so much on the tv series since so much of his jokes, musings,observations are internal. But maybe you need to read all of the books to get a better grasp of Jon's character and fully appreciate the importance of the Wall, the Others and the Wildlings.

To the topic at hand.....GRRM has had multiple POVs in one location before,not sure why it has to change. Of course, while Jon is recovering, he could upgrade one of the supporting players to a POV. I wouldnt be surprised if we see Bowen Marsh for one chapter, Tormund for another, etc. And of course, I would love to see more of Mels' POV. She's such a polarizing, dynamic character. I find her journey and her readings fascinating.

He's already stated that he won't be adding new POVs, so Marsh's is out (I doubt he would be a good one, anyway), and so is Tormund's. We have either Jon or Mel.

[redriver]

He's already stated that he won't be adding new POVs, so Marsh's is out (I doubt he would be a good one, anyway), and so is Tormund's. We have either Jon or Mel.

No new character POVs.That's not the same thing.

In fact we have no eyes in Winterfell since the jump.Since it's pretty much confirmed that the prologue will not feature Winterfell,we need a new POV to tell the story from when Theon and Jeyne departed.Much intrigue going on there and I doubt it's going to be glossed over by some sort of backfill.