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Jon would have done much better than Robb


201 replies to this topic

#1 Modelex

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:16 AM

This is just a thread made to show that if Jon were the one leading the armies circa AGOT, things would have been much better for the Stark family

 

1) No poisonous Tully influence

 

We all know what great contributions the Tullys made to Robb's cause. In that they screwed things up time and time again, releasing one of their most prized captives and withdrawing men from the Twins for example. If Jon were the one at war, he would not have to deal with this family at all, or the Riverlands. This would have made him more successful than Robb ever was. He could probably even get them on his side regardless for a common cause, but he would not be attached to them by any blood obligation

 

2) Jon would have supported Stannis

 

I have no doubt in my mind that Jon would not put a crown on his head. He would have bent the knee Stannis just like his father because he was Ned's truest son unlike Robb

 

3) Jon wouldn't trust Theon or Roose Bolton

 

Jon growing up as a bastard knows how to judge people's characters better than any of his trueborn siblings. He would know just how rotten and false Theon is and would keep him by his side instead of letting him free. I think he would have also gotten Balon on his side with a better envoy. He would have also never given Roose control of army as he knew Ned never trusted the man.

 

4) Jon would have traded Jaime

 

Unlike his brother, Jon wouldn't have abandoned his sisters in King's Landing. He would have traded them for Jaime and gotten them safely home.

 

5) Jon would have kept his oaths

 

Jon, like Ned, only besmirches his honor in times of need or when he needs to do so to save a family member. He would have kept any marriage arrangements and not be incredibly irresponsible and throw them away for some random fling

 

6) Equal education to Robb

 

We know from various recollections in Jon's PoV, that Ned taught Jon alongside Robb some lessons in how to rule. So Jon lacking education since he was a bastard would not be a problem at all. In fact, I would say from his time as LC he took the lessons to heart more than any of the Stark kids. He would have proven just as able (or perhaps more capable) as a military commander. And he would not have Cat around to give him some "smart" ideas

 

So all in all, I think that if Ned got Jon legitimized as a Stark before the events of the series, and he was the one in charge, he would have done quite well for the Starks.

 

Only person who would have stood in the way of that is the old bat unfortanately

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#2 Leap

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:19 AM

Pretty much all of those things are hypothesised based on Jon's current character and the run of events leading up to the war. All of which would be drastically different if Jon was in charge of the Stark armies.



#3 Lady Baela Targaryen

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:26 AM

Can't tell if trolling or stupid.



#4 David Selig

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:30 AM

Jon isn't any smarter than Robb, he just has a much stronger plot armor and a field which makes the other characters act like idiots around him for his benefit.

 

LOL at the "poisonous Tully influence".



#5 Mr Bell

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:32 AM

Jon isn't any smarter than Robb, he just has a much stronger plot armor and a field which makes the other characters act like idiots around him for his benefit.

 

LOL at the "poisonous Tully influence".

 

Darn Tullys, they're ruinin' mah Starks!



#6 Bryden Tully

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:40 AM

Ugh

 

1) The Tully/Riverlords provdied Robb with castles, fighting men and supplies. His best commander-Blackfish came from house Tully. Do you think that they're going to bend the knee to a bastard (which also disrepects house tully). The riverlords allowled Robb to survive for as long as he did

2) A bastard doesn't make him more trusting-Roose Bolton raised his banners for Ned, and for Robb, and held the line at the Battle of the Forks. Robb had every reason to trust him, you're using something called hindsight here

3)Lies about Balon-no matter who he sent Balon would still attack the North. Theon was the only one who would of had the power to change him-if he send Glover or someone they would of had their head send to them in a box

4)Robb says his bannerman would of killed him if he traded the Kingslayer-at best Jon would get Sansa back who then be killed at the RW/ or by Bolton

5)yeah because Jon never breaks his vow for sex.....

6)Jon in a AGOT is arrogant, moody and a general prick. The northerns aren't going to want to march south with him with any speed



#7 Hodor's Dragon

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:42 AM

Can't tell if trolling or stupid.

 

I hate replies like this.  If you think he's stupid, tell us why.

 

OP put about 100X more effort into his post than you put into this.



#8 David Selig

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:43 AM

6)Jon in a AGOT is arrogant, moody and a general prick. The northerns aren't going to want to march south with him with any speed

And a dumbass to boot. He needed Tyrion to explain him what is it like in the watch, he needed Sam to explain to him the very obvious reason for his assignment to serve Jeor Mormont, he thought it was a good idea to desert to go join Robb, etc...



#9 Bryden Tully

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:47 AM

 

I hate replies like this.  If you think he's stupid, tell us why.

 

OP put about 100X more effort into his post than you put into this.

and his post is about 100x worse



#10 Modelex

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:49 AM

Jon isn't any smarter than Robb, he just has a much stronger plot armor and a field which makes the other characters act like idiots around him for his benefit.

 

LOL at the "poisonous Tully influence".

 

This doesn't sound like a very good arguement. Invoking meta textual elements to make Jon look worse

 

And are you insinuating the Tullys were a positive influence on the Starks? That is laughable



#11 Leap

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:53 AM

 

This doesn't sound like a very good arguement. Invoking meta textual elements to make Jon look worse

 

And are you insinuating the Tullys were a positive influence on the Starks? That is laughable

They gave the Starks control of an entire region, including Riverrun - one of the stronger fortresses in Westeros. Not to mention that the Blackfish and his scouts, and advice was absolutely key to many of Robb's successes. 



#12 Modelex

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:55 AM

Ugh

 

1) The Tully/Riverlords provdied Robb with castles, fighting men and supplies. His best commander-Blackfish came from house Tully. Do you think that they're going to bend the knee to a bastard (which also disrepects house tully). The riverlords allowled Robb to survive for as long as he did

The riverlords helped him survive as long as they did? Was it not a river lord who killed him? The men you speak of were told to go home largely thanks to Edmure. The Riverlands were a net loss overall. And yes they would possibly contribute men anyways if Jon is fighting for half-Tully children

 

2) A bastard doesn't make him more trusting-Roose Bolton raised his banners for Ned, and for Robb, and held the line at the Battle of the Forks. Robb had every reason to trust him, you're using something called hindsight here

I'll let the text answer this one

 

"Eddard Stark had never had any reason to complain of the Lord of the Dreadfort, so far as Jon knew, but even so he had never trusted him, with his whispery voice and his pale, pale eyes."

 

3)Lies about Balon-no matter who he sent Balon would still attack the North. Theon was the only one who would of had the power to change him-if he send Glover or someone they would of had their head send to them in a box

Theon, the son he never saw in a decade has no chance of swaying him. And releasing a hostage, with a poorly worded letter was all weakness in Balon's eyes. Jon would have sent someone else and possibly gotten an alliance with Balon

 

4)Robb says his bannerman would of killed him if he traded the Kingslayer-at best Jon would get Sansa back who then be killed at the RW/ or by Bolton

His bannermen would have unmade him, that's what he says. This just shows weakness, and when Jaime is released anyways do and Robb forgives Cat for it, do they kill him?

 

5)yeah because Jon never breaks his vow for sex.....

He was with the wildlings and was pretty much forced to. He would never marry someone while sworn to someone else, I have no doubt of that

 

6)Jon in a AGOT is arrogant, moody and a general prick. The northerns aren't going to want to march south with him with any speed

And Robb is better? Jon was more thoughtful anyways. If they can follow Robb they can follow Jon



#13 Modelex

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:57 AM

They gave the Starks control of an entire region, including Riverrun - one of the stronger fortresses in Westeros. Not to mention that the Blackfish and his scouts, and advice was absolutely key to many of Robb's successes. 

What they gave the Starks was an entire region that had to be defended, the most indefensible one in Westeros I may add. With no natural defensive positions, poor and disloyal bannermen, and a marriage to a woman who is responsible for half the calamities the Starks endure etc.

 

After the RR, the Tullys were not needed in any capacity whatsoever. I can say with a certainty that if divorce were possible in Westeros, and Ned divorced Cat after he won the war, the Starks lives would be infinitely better off


Edited by Modelex, 08 July 2014 - 11:58 AM.


#14 Roxy Carmichael

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:58 AM

Jon isn't a very good leader.  He does what he "feels" is best, and disregards his men and their opinions and concerns. He loses pretty much all support because of it.

 

One of Robb's greatest strengths was his ability to identify valuable men, surround himself with them, and defer to their judgement. 



#15 RoamingRonin

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:59 AM

Jon would not have made the same mistakes Robb made (Jon's eyes were open to things Robb could not see) but how successful he would have been is impossible to determine.

 

Jon isn't any smarter than Robb, he just has a much stronger plot armor and a field which makes the other characters act like idiots around him for his benefit.

 

LOL at the "poisonous Tully influence".

 

I'm convinced Jon will never have to make a difficult decision, ever. Someone will always swoop in to make things easier for him. He'll be the best king.



#16 Bryden Tully

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 12:07 PM

 

Ugh

 

1) The Tully/Riverlords provdied Robb with castles, fighting men and supplies. His best commander-Blackfish came from house Tully. Do you think that they're going to bend the knee to a bastard (which also disrepects house tully). The riverlords allowled Robb to survive for as long as he did

The riverlords helped him survive as long as they did? Was it not a river lord who killed him? The men you speak of were told to go home largely thanks to Edmure. The Riverlands were a net loss overall. And yes they would possibly contribute men anyways if Jon is fighting for half-Tully children

 

2) A bastard doesn't make him more trusting-Roose Bolton raised his banners for Ned, and for Robb, and held the line at the Battle of the Forks. Robb had every reason to trust him, you're using something called hindsight here

I'll let the text answer this one

 

"Eddard Stark had never had any reason to complain of the Lord of the Dreadfort, so far as Jon knew, but even so he had never trusted him, with his whispery voice and his pale, pale eyes."

 

3)Lies about Balon-no matter who he sent Balon would still attack the North. Theon was the only one who would of had the power to change him-if he send Glover or someone they would of had their head send to them in a box

Theon, the son he never saw in a decade has no chance of swaying him. And releasing a hostage, with a poorly worded letter was all weakness in Balon's eyes. Jon would have sent someone else and possibly gotten an alliance with Balon

 

4)Robb says his bannerman would of killed him if he traded the Kingslayer-at best Jon would get Sansa back who then be killed at the RW/ or by Bolton

His bannermen would have unmade him, that's what he says. This just shows weakness, and when Jaime is released anyways do and Robb forgives Cat for it, do they kill him?

 

5)yeah because Jon never breaks his vow for sex.....

He was with the wildlings and was pretty much forced to. He would never marry someone while sworn to someone else, I have no doubt of that

 

6)Jon in a AGOT is arrogant, moody and a general prick. The northerns aren't going to want to march south with him with any speed

And Robb is better? Jon was more thoughtful anyways. If they can follow Robb they can follow Jon

 

No they wouldn't-Blackfish refused to take the Black because he thought that Jon Snow was a lannister spy. Trust me if your brother in law fucked another woman and then had her child you wouldn't rush to support said child would you? The Tully's provided men, and battle commanders. Who led the vanguard at Oxcross? Blackfish. Who led the outriders and defeated the lannisters at the camps? Blackfish. Who kept Rivverun for the Starks until the might of the crown was brought down? Blackfish

 

Robb didn't trust him, half the north didn't trust him. But they needed him, his 5,000 men and his battle experience. The only way to stop Roose pulling the RW is too kill him. How do you think Jon would of stopped Roose? Would he of asked him nicely?

 

No, No,No. Balon didn't want an alliance. Do you understand that? He was already planning to attack the North. Theon as a hostage is worthless as shown later on-have you even read the books?

 

Yes they do kill him-in fact Roose Bolton does. The KL release was not popular at all, neither would a trade off been. Hence why Karstark rebelled

 

Yeah sure-Jon was forced to fuck Yrgittee.... poor jon

 

Yes Robb was much better in AGOT personality wise-hence why his bannerman crown him

 

JON ALSO GETS STABBED BY HIS MEN YOU KNOW


Edited by Bryden Tully, 08 July 2014 - 12:08 PM.


#17 Mr Bell

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 12:07 PM

 


The riverlords helped him survive as long as they did? Was it not a river lord who killed him?

 

Uh, no. A northman killed Robb.



#18 sj4iy

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 12:12 PM

I guess we'll see when Jon gets his shot with the Northern forces.

#19 FireAndBlood.

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 12:15 PM

Oh well, Jon isn't even Ned's son so he'd have no business leading the northern army.



#20 El Guapo

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 12:16 PM

Well he got his shot with the NW and his own men ended up stabbing him after what a couple of months.


Edited by El Guapo, 08 July 2014 - 12:17 PM.