Jon would have done much better than Robb

[John Doe]

I wish Dany had mentors or friends Jon has had.

She has Jorah and Barristan, that's not that bad.

[Erkan12]

That is not true though. Robb apologised profusely to Walder over and over again. He suffered Walder slights with remarkable poise and politeness. He secured a great match for walders daughter in recompense and would have given gold lands and titles if asked. That is not nothing and it is not pretending like he did nothing wrong it is actually the opposite. How many times did Robert bow to Tywin for breaking his oath to honour cersei? Or did hoster attack the north when ned supposedly dishonoured cat? These are not the same as Robb's situation but they are similar

Furthermore earlier in this thread you said Robb could not make up for the deaths of Frey men but when I challenged you on this you changed your tune. Robb made every effort other then to put aside the woman he loved. Men die in war and robb is as much to blame for that as is anyone

Agreed.

As GRRM said, Freys were still going to betray Robb even if he married with a frey girl, only different thing would be the level of violence, which means nothing.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Agreed.

As GRRM said, Freys were still going to betray Robb even if he married with a frey girl, only different thing would be the level of violence, which means nothing.

Of course it does. There is a huge difference between the Red Wedding and what the Brackens and other Riverlords did. The Freys would most likely have jumped ship and tried to negotiate peace like they did.

[Minsc]

Exactly the true heroes arc, Jon is ready to lead at this point unlike at the beginning. "Fetch me a block" that about sums it up.

"Fetch me" just shows Jon as a weak leader, who so poorly inspires some of his men that he has to execute one in hopes of winning some respect.

He always had his parents helping him and guiding him.

Ned, Jeor, Donal, Aemon, Qhorin, and so forth. Jon constantly has people holding his hands.

So yes for the time they were both alive Jon made only one mistake; trying to go to Robb's side in AGOT.

I would recommend reading ADWD if you think Jon only made one mistake.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

That is not true though. Robb apologised profusely to Walder over and over again. He suffered Walder slights with remarkable poise and politeness. He secured a great match for walders daughter in recompense and would have given gold lands and titles if asked. That is not nothing and it is not pretending like he did nothing wrong it is actually the opposite. How many times did Robert bow to Tywin for breaking his oath to honour cersei? Or did hoster attack the north when ned supposedly dishonoured cat? These are not the same as Robb's situation but they are similar

Furthermore earlier in this thread you said Robb could not make up for the deaths of Frey men but when I challenged you on this you changed your tune. Robb made every effort other then to put aside the woman he loved. Men die in war and robb is as much to blame for that as is anyone

If the Freys were promised to marry their female Frey with Edmure then it would be ok. Robb could had acted elsewise but prefer not to and that only seems that he didn't cared because he was better than them. What makes him better than Freys? Robb had the opportunity to act like he was supposed to do. Why not making amends with Jeyne? Why not giving Jeyne to Edmure and order Edmure to marry her?

[Frey Pie]

If the Freys were promised to marry their female Frey with Edmure then it would be ok. Robb could had acted elsewise but prefer not to and that only seems that he didn't cared because he was better than them. What makes him better than Freys? Robb had the opportunity to act like he was supposed to do. Why not making amends with Jeyne? Why not giving Jeyne to Edmure and order Edmure to marry her?

And again, when did Robb say or think he was better then the Freys? When he was begging for their services? When he was apologising to them? When he was accepting insults?

Your point makes no sense

[Frey Pie]

No, he didn't.

Robb was taking his entire military back North with him with the Lannisters and the Tyrells on the doorsteps of the Riverlands. The Tullys were done as a Ruling House at that point, anyone could see that.

Well then I bow to your foresight owe wise one

[Jon's Queen Consort]

And again, when did Robb say or think he was better then the Freys? When he was begging for their services? When he was apologising to them? When he was accepting insults?

Your point makes no sense

When he acted like that. When he married someone else and believed that because he will give them Edmure they should be happy. Well, they didn't helped Edmure they helped him in exchange for marrying him.

[Frey Pie]

When he acted like that. When he married someone else and believed that because he will give them Edmure they should be happy. Well, they didn't helped Edmure they helped him in exchange for marrying him.

No offense but I'm not understanding your use of the word helped...

And really I can't understand how Robb showed he thought he was better then Walder by trying to make amends. Robb messed up and robb admitted it. He did what he could to make up for it in a limited time frame. Should he have acted like Robert baratheon and beem like ya I fucked you over, whatever I'm your king so kneel?

And let's be clear here. Roose killed many many more innocent men at the RW then the number of his men killed during the war. Robb had very few casualties in his part of the war. I would think Walder lost around 350 or so men. That means he killed 10 tines more for the insult. That is not justice

[Jon's Queen Consort]

No offense but I'm not understanding your use of the word helped...

And really I can't understand how Robb showed he thought he was better then Walder by trying to make amends. Robb messed up and robb admitted it. He did what he could to make up for it in a limited time frame. Should he have acted like Robert baratheon and beem like ya I fucked you over, whatever I'm your king so kneel?

And let's be clear here. Roose killed many many more innocent men at the RW then the number of his men killed during the war. Robb had very few casualties in his part of the war. I would think Walder lost around 350 or so men. That means he killed 10 tines more for the insult. That is not justice

Again the fact that he pretended to admite it means nothing. His actions speak louder than his words and his actions prooved that he didn't cared.

[Frey Pie]

Again the fact that he pretended to admite it means nothing. His actions speak louder than his words and his actions prooved that he didn't cared.

Well then I don't know what to say to you. People make mistakes every day. The only way they make amends is to apologise and try to make up for it. Robb did both so really I cannot understand how after that the slaughter of thousands can be justified purely for wounded pride

I'll hasten to add that the text states multiple times Iirc that Walder had sought Edmure's hand for one of his daughters on a number of occasions

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well then I don't know what to say to you. People make mistakes every day. The only way they make amends is to apologise and try to make up for it. Robb did both so really I cannot understand how after that the slaughter of thousands can be justified purely for wounded pride

I'll hasten to add that the text states multiple times Iirc that Walder had sought Edmure's hand for one of his daughters on a number of occasions

Again, that was not only a mistake. When someone is a King and he knows what he has to do he cannot make "mistakes" like that. It's not something that just happened when he didn't understood how, it wasn't something beyond his power. He knew what he was doing and he didn't cared. If he did he wouldn't act like that.

[Frey Pie]

Again, that was not only a mistake. When someone is a King and he knows what he has to do he cannot make "mistakes" like that. It's not something that just happened when he didn't understood how, it wasn't something beyond his power. He knew what he was doing and he didn't cared. If he did he wouldn't act like that.

And so murder is justified by someone knowingly making a mistake....I gotta agree your morale compass seems somehow skewed. In any case I'm gonna bow out of this one as I totally disagree and you've gone from Robb not being able to make up for Frey deaths to robb pretending to be sorry so.

As for the thread ill stick to what I said earlier. It's impossible to switch them for a number of reasons. If we were to put jon in a similar military position though I can't imagine he'd do as well as Robb. This isn't a slight on Jon's behalf, Robb was a truly great commander in the making

[Jon's Queen Consort]

And so murder is justified by someone knowingly making a mistake....I gotta agree your morale compass seems somehow skewed. In any case I'm gonna bow out of this one as I totally disagree and you've gone from Robb not being able to make up for Frey deaths to robb pretending to be sorry so.

As for the thread ill stick to what I said earlier. It's impossible to switch them for a number of reasons. If we were to put jon in a similar military position though I can't imagine he'd do as well as Robb. This isn't a slight on Jon's behalf, Robb was a truly great commander in the making

I don't think that you or anyone else can and is able to criticize the other, you don't know me so you are not able to know if you, or me or anyone else, is better than me, or than anyone else. You can criticize what I am saying but you are not allowed to criticize me as a person. The same way I am not critising you as a person you are, or anyone else, you are not allowed to do that either. Because then is personal and is offensive.

Robb knowlingly broke his allieance and became an enemy, of course an enemy will kill an enemy every time he will find him vulnerable. The same way that Robb attacked at the Battle of the Camps. The moment he broke his vows he became an enemy and a very precious-to-kill enemy.