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Baelor Breakspear...brown of hair...


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31 replies to this topic

#1 Ser Uncle P

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 01:45 PM

The non Baratheon looking features of Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen is used by "proof" of bastardy and starts a war. 

 

LIkewise, the non Valyrian features of Jace, Luke and Joffrey Velaryon is used as "proof" of bastardy by the "greens" in the run up to the Dance. 

 

So did the Blackfyre supporters use Baelor Breakspear's dark "Rhoynish" looks as evidence in their uprising?

 

Obviously they couldn't shout "Bastard!", considering Daemon's birth, but Daemon had undoubted Valaryian features compared to Prince Baelor. 



#2 RumHam

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 01:52 PM

As evidence of what? That he took after his Dornish mother?



#3 It'sAlwaysWinterInScotland

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 01:53 PM

I don't understand why they would. There was no enmity between Baelor or Daemon. The Blackfyres claimed Daemon was the true heir of Aegon IV as Dareon II was the bastard son of Aemon The Dragonknight - not claiming I believe that, mind - so Baelor's brown hair isn't evidence of that, nor would him being a bastard have furthered the Blackfyre cause, as Daeron had other sons.

It'd be an odd piece of propaganda too, given that Baelor was one of the loyalists in favour of leniency for his uncle.

Edited by It'sAlwaysWinterInScotland, 09 July 2014 - 02:06 PM.


#4 Ser Uncle P

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 02:01 PM

oops my bad, forgot it was the bastardy of Dareon II, and not Baelor that the Blackfyre supporters alleged. 



#5 new djinn

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 02:59 PM

Besides, Maekar was very Targ in looks. None of Cersei's kids look Baratheon nor Rhaenyra's kids with Velaryon guy.



#6 KingMaekarWasHere

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 03:21 PM

Besides, Maekar was very Targ in looks. None of Cersei's kids look Baratheon nor Rhaenyra's kids with Velaryon guy.

And you know your Targ history. Good point on Rhaenyra and Cersei too. :cool4:



#7 Lady Blizzardborn

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 02:54 PM

The paternity on Cersei's kids is in no way related to how Targaryen genetics turn out.

 

Every time a Baratheon wed a Lannister, the resulting children of the marriage had black hair.  Robert's children with Cersei would have had black hair.  Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen didn't.  That's the point.

 

 

Besides, Maekar was very Targ in looks. None of Cersei's kids look Baratheon nor Rhaenyra's kids with Velaryon guy.

I don't see how Rhaenyra's kids make any difference.  The Velaryons were a Valyrian family to begin with.  Their kids would look rather Targ-like anyway.


Edited by Lady Blizzardborn, 10 July 2014 - 02:55 PM.


#8 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 03:02 PM

The paternity on Cersei's kids is in no way related to how Targaryen genetics turn out.

 

Every time a Baratheon wed a Lannister, the resulting children of the marriage had black hair.  Robert's children with Cersei would have had black hair.  Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen didn't.  That's the point.

 

What about Rhaenys, the Queen who never was. Her mother was a Baratheon, right? And she had silver hair.



#9 Mitbert Strangejoy

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 04:33 PM

The paternity on Cersei's kids is in no way related to how Targaryen genetics turn out.

 

Every time a Baratheon wed a Lannister, the resulting children of the marriage had black hair.  Robert's children with Cersei would have had black hair.  Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen didn't.  That's the point.

 

 

I don't see how Rhaenyra's kids make any difference.  The Velaryons were a Valyrian family to begin with.  Their kids would look rather Targ-like anyway.

 

That's why their dark features were so strange.  There were obviously Strong bastards rather than Valyrians.



#10 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 04:42 PM

 
What about Rhaenys, the Queen who never was. Her mother was a Baratheon, right? And she had silver hair.


There is a difference between Baratheon genes being dominant over Lannister genes, and Baratheon genes being dominant over every single gene pool.

Baratheon genes are stated to be dominant over Lannister genes only. Apparently, Baratheon features are not dominant over Targaryen genes

#11 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 04:44 PM

 
That's why their dark features were so strange.  There were obviously Strong bastards rather than Valyrians.


Really? We can't be certain they were Strong bastards. That would be ignoring Rhaenyra's Arryn blood, and Laenors Baratheon heritage. Both Baratheons and Arryns are know to have darker coloured hair..

#12 Mitbert Strangejoy

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 04:47 PM

Really? We can't be certain they were Strong bastards. That would be ignoring Rhaenyra's Arryn blood, and Laenors Baratheon heritage. Both Baratheons and Arryns are know to have darker coloured hair..

 

All of the 3 kids got dark features that skipped Rhaenyra?  And we know that her  (fair) Valeryon husband wasn't interested in women.

 

I realize the GRRM isn't a geneticist, but goodness, this would be a biological miracle.


Edited by Mitbert Strangejoy, 10 July 2014 - 04:48 PM.


#13 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 04:54 PM

 
All of the 3 kids got dark features that skipped Rhaenyra?  And we know that her  (fair) Valeryon husband wasn't interested in women.
 
I realize the GRRM isn't a geneticist, but goodness, this would be a biological miracle.

All three, it's possible, yes. It would also be the ultimate irony.

There are plenty of homosexual men who have children. It isn't impossible for them to father children ;)

#14 Mitbert Strangejoy

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 05:04 PM

All three, it's possible, yes. It would also be the ultimate irony.

There are plenty of homosexual men who have children. It isn't impossible for them to father children ;)

 

It's possible that I'll win the lotto tomorrow.   Obviously gay men can have children.  But all things equal, when a gay man with fair features and a fair woman with a known lover have dark-featured children, all signs point towards bastards.


Edited by Mitbert Strangejoy, 10 July 2014 - 05:04 PM.


#15 It'sAlwaysWinterInScotland

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 07:27 PM

All three, it's possible, yes. It would also be the ultimate irony.

There are plenty of homosexual men who have children. It isn't impossible for them to father children ;)


I think, going by the details in TRP, it's unlikely that Laenor is the biological father, but it is speculated that Rhaenyra joined in with her husband and his lover. Quite possible to conceive then....

#16 not in the face

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 07:45 PM

There is a difference between Baratheon genes being dominant over Lannister genes, and Baratheon genes being dominant over every single gene pool.

Baratheon genes are stated to be dominant over Lannister genes only. Apparently, Baratheon features are not dominant over Targaryen genes

What about Steffon then and all his children? Why do they not have Targaryen features? 



#17 new djinn

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 07:58 PM

There are no definitive proof. Only circunstantial. But in the Roberts case, there a huge pile of circunstantial evidence. And i bet that if Stannis delivered Pycelle to Ser Clayton Suggs tender care, more evidence would come up.



#18 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 01:41 AM

What about Steffon then and all his children? Why do they not have Targaryen features? 

Let me correct myself: Barathron genes are not always dominant over Valyrian genes.

Also, we don't know how Rhaelle looked, she might have taken after her own mother. Since we don't know who Egg married, it's hard to tell.

#19 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 02:21 AM

 
It's possible that I'll win the lotto tomorrow.   Obviously gay men can have children.  But all things equal, when a gay man with fair features and a fair woman with a known lover have dark-featured children, all signs point towards bastards.


I'm not argueing that they aren't bastards. I'm saying that we can't be certain 100%.


I think, going by the details in TRP, it's unlikely that Laenor is the biological father, but it is speculated that Rhaenyra joined in with her husband and his lover. Quite possible to conceive then....


What I find a bit suspicious about TRP, is that whenever something bad happens, it is viewed from the point of Rhaenyras affairs. Look at Laenors death, for example. Who would have profited from his death the most? The greens, since they could now try and convince Viserd to marry Rhaenyra to Aegon (something which they tried to do). Yet the greens aren't in the list of suspects for Laenors death, nor are they on any other list. They should not be blamed for everything, but they should at least be considered.

If Gyldyan, or any if his sources, who seem to have been alive during Viserys' reign, had described Harwins appearance, and the three boys had looked just like him, than that would have been very convincing. But Harwin isn't described at all, and I wonder, is that because at he time they didn't consider him important enough? (a bit u likely, due to the rumours about beig Rhaenyra's paramour) Or is he bot described because there is something more...? Is it perhaps because he looked nothing like the three boys either?

There is no reason for Glydyan to have chosen the side of the greens (the guy lived 100 years after the Dance), but if his sources had their preferences, (and his sources were alive back then), that might explain why..

#20 Lord Varys

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 02:38 AM

I could imagine that Daemon I was also quite popular because he had the Targaryen features, whereas Daeron II's heir Baelor looked just like a common guy. And those traits did also exist in Maekar's like - Daeron the Drunken also had common blond hair, not Valyrian hair. Although I guess that Maekar's wife had Valyrian blood, since at least two of her sons had prototypical Valyrian features (Aerion and Egg).

 

As to Rhaenyra's elder sons being Laenor's despite the fact that her husband was very much a Valyrian:

 

Rhaenyra herself descended from House Arryn - through the husband of her grandmother Daella. And Laenor may have Targaryen ancestors on his mother's and father's side, but he also has non-Valyrian ancestors (for instance, all the members of House Durrandon and their spouses due to the fact that his grandmother Jocelyn was a Baratheon), and we also don't know into which houses the Velaryons married before and after the Conquest when there were no Targaryen daughters available.

 

It would be not impossible that Rhaenyra's Arryn genes (Robert Arryn is brown-haired, too) resurfaced in Jace, Luke, and Joff, because Laenor's Valyrian blood was not strong (i.e. incestuous enough).