Baelor Breakspear...brown of hair...

[Lady Blizzardborn]

There is a difference between Baratheon genes being dominant over Lannister genes, and Baratheon genes being dominant over every single gene pool.

Baratheon genes are stated to be dominant over Lannister genes only. Apparently, Baratheon features are not dominant over Targaryen genes

:agree: Yes! Thank you for addressing that!

That's why their dark features were so strange. There were obviously Strong bastards rather than Valyrians.

Not Baratheon or Lannister, therefore not evidence in the case of Cersei's kids.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Not Baratheon or Lannister, therefore not evidence in the case of Cersei's kids.

I didn't say that this was evidence in the case of Cersei's kids.

[Aemond's Eye]

I'm not argueing that they aren't bastards. I'm saying that we can't be certain 100%.

What I find a bit suspicious about TRP, is that whenever something bad happens, it is viewed from the point of Rhaenyras affairs. Look at Laenors death, for example. Who would have profited from his death the most? The greens, since they could now try and convince Viserd to marry Rhaenyra to Aegon (something which they tried to do). Yet the greens aren't in the list of suspects for Laenors death, nor are they on any other list. They should not be blamed for everything, but they should at least be considered.

If Gyldyan, or any if his sources, who seem to have been alive during Viserys' reign, had described Harwins appearance, and the three boys had looked just like him, than that would have been very convincing. But Harwin isn't described at all, and I wonder, is that because at he time they didn't consider him important enough? (a bit u likely, due to the rumours about beig Rhaenyra's paramour) Or is he bot described because there is something more...? Is it perhaps because he looked nothing like the three boys either?

There is no reason for Glydyan to have chosen the side of the greens (the guy lived 100 years after the Dance), but if his sources had their preferences, (and his sources were alive back then), that might explain why..

Good point. If the boys were conceived during any sort of tryst between Rhaenyra, Laenor and his lover, the child could easily be Laenor's lover's, rather than Harwin Strong's.

I know it's unlikely, but I'd still love for some sort of novel based around TPATQ/TRP rather than the historical style it's been published in. I quite like the latter, but it does leave a lot of stuff ambiguous and open to interpretation. I mean, in theory, a Maester writing about Robert Baratheon's heirs could easily write that Joffrey and Tommen were "clearly their father's sons, but took some characteristics from their mother" - whereas we know differently from the POV of the characters.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1. I think we're meant to conclude that Rhaenyra's three sons with Laenor were in fact bastards.

2. I've waffled on whether Rhaenys having Targaryen looks and not Baratheon looks is an error on GRRM's part or if he really was just pressing the point that "Baratheon + Blonde = Baratheon every time," and that the Targaryen phenotype is independent of that. Other families' phenotypes can be expressed in the Baratheon line (e.g. Shireen's poor Florent ears), but the hair and eyes are emphasized so much that it just seems odd for GRRM to miss the opportunity to really drive home the Baratheon phenotype supremacy home with Rhaenys. It's his story and he can do what he wants, obviously, but a clearly dominant phenotype (Baratheon) falling to what has been a more recessive phenotype (Targaryen) just seems strange, especially given that Rhaelle apparently didn't pass her phenotype on to Steffon or Robert, Stannis, Renly, etc.

[Ser Eric]

I know it's unlikely, but I'd still love for some sort of novel based around TPATQ/TRP rather than the historical style it's been published in. I quite like the latter, but it does leave a lot of stuff ambiguous and open to interpretation. I mean, in theory, a Maester writing about Robert Baratheon's heirs could easily write that Joffrey and Tommen were "clearly their father's sons, but took some characteristics from their mother" - whereas we know differently from the POV of the characters.

Agreed. I am not a big fan of such ambiguity.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1. I think we're meant to conclude that Rhaenyra's three sons with Laenor were in fact bastards.

2. I've waffled on whether Rhaenys having Targaryen looks and not Baratheon looks is an error on GRRM's part or if he really was just pressing the point that "Baratheon + Blonde = Baratheon every time," and that the Targaryen phenotype is independent of that. Other families' phenotypes can be expressed in the Baratheon line (e.g. Shireen's poor Florent ears), but the hair and eyes are emphasized so much that it just seems odd for GRRM to miss the opportunity to really drive home the Baratheon phenotype supremacy home with Rhaenys. It's his story and he can do what he wants, obviously, but a clearly dominant phenotype (Baratheon) falling to what has been a more recessive phenotype (Targaryen) just seems strange, especially given that Rhaelle apparently didn't pass her phenotype on to Steffon or Robert, Stannis, Renly, etc.

Rhaelle might have taken after her mother more, whoever her mother might have been..?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Rhaelle might have taken after her mother more, whoever her mother might have been..?

I suppose that's true.

Still unsure of what he was going for with Rhaenys, though.

[Lord Varys]

It has already been established that a darker phenotype does not necessarily beat Valyrian looks. At least no always. Myriah Martell most likely was dark-haired, and of her four sons two (Aerys and Maekar) had very distinct Targaryen looks. And Baelor's eldest son Valarr shows a strong sign that even his children were sort of getting the Valyrian looks back (which could be a hint that Baelor Breakspear was married to a sister/Targaryen with Valyrian features).

In fact, the whole Valyrian thing may actually be pretty resilient - Maekar, Egg, and Jaehaerys all could have had non-Targaryen/non-Valyrian wives, and still Aerys/Rhaella and Rhaegar/Viserys/Daenerys all had very prominent Valyrian features. So either those genes are prone to turn up again if the incest is resumed in time, or they are more resilient that we might think.

I'd favor the former, though, since it's confirmed that non-Valyrian matches seem to have mixed results with a tendency towards 'common looks'.

As to Rhaenys and Jocelyn Baratheon:

We have no idea who Jocelyn's mother was, and whether she had Valyrian looks. But if that's the case, and if Jocelyn's Baratheon also had a recent infusion of Valyrian blood (say, through a Velaryon or a Targaryen from a cadet branch), then it would be no surprise that Rhaenys turned out Valyrian.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It has already been established that a darker phenotype does not necessarily beat Valyrian looks. At least no always.

Yes, but have any of those phenotypes been hammered home as being as dominant as the Baratheons'? That's my only point, that it's odd for basically the entire Lannister incest plot to hinge on the Baratheon phenotype being so dominant, when Rhaenys apparently had Targaryen features. And yes, obviously it's possible for it to just be a "blonde" thing, but it still strikes me as strange.

[Aemond's Eye]

1. I think we're meant to conclude that Rhaenyra's three sons with Laenor were in fact bastards.

2. I've waffled on whether Rhaenys having Targaryen looks and not Baratheon looks is an error on GRRM's part or if he really was just pressing the point that "Baratheon + Blonde = Baratheon every time," and that the Targaryen phenotype is independent of that. Other families' phenotypes can be expressed in the Baratheon line (e.g. Shireen's poor Florent ears), but the hair and eyes are emphasized so much that it just seems odd for GRRM to miss the opportunity to really drive home the Baratheon phenotype supremacy home with Rhaenys. It's his story and he can do what he wants, obviously, but a clearly dominant phenotype (Baratheon) falling to what has been a more recessive phenotype (Targaryen) just seems strange, especially given that Rhaelle apparently didn't pass her phenotype on to Steffon or Robert, Stannis, Renly, etc.

Aye, I'd say that's the case. I'd still have preferred the events leading up to and including the Dance of The Dragons as a novel, as there's so much going on, and it sounds like the makings of a great story.

Yes, but have any of those phenotypes been hammered home as being as dominant as the Baratheons'? That's my only point, that it's odd for basically the entire Lannister incest plot to hinge on the Baratheon phenotype being so dominant, when Rhaenys apparently had Targaryen features. And yes, obviously it's possible for it to just be a "blonde" thing, but it still strikes me as strange.

I don't think the looks are the only reason though. Stannis would have been able to suss out the lack of affection between Robert and Cersei, may have thought he seen something between Cersei and Jaime, and then started digging. I really doubt that both Jon Arryn and Stannis Baratheon hinged their entire suspicions on the looks of a few bastards compared to the Lannister kids.

Having said that, if both of Robert's supposed sons looked enough like Jaime and one of those two thought there was something amiss there, that'd be enough to make me start digging into things if I were in their shoes.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I didn't say that this was evidence in the case of Cersei's kids.

No, you didn't, but someone else did.

[Maia]

Yes, but have any of those phenotypes been hammered home as being as dominant as the Baratheons'? That's my only point, that it's odd for basically the entire Lannister incest plot to hinge on the Baratheon phenotype being so dominant.

Baratheons can't be as dominant as all that, since the Stormlands aren't overrun with their phenotype, not even the nobility.

Also, IIRC the Florents already have dark hair and light eyes, so the "evidence" of Shireen and Edric is completely moot. We don't know about Mya's mother. Barra's was what, reddish-brown? IIRC, only Gendry from among Robert's known bastards actually had a blonde mother.

The book's evidence from a century or so back is completely worthless. I mean, how much "blood" did Robert share with those people? Did any blonde women marry into Baratheons in the mean time? Etc.

If Cersei had been a bit more intelligent and informed, she could have completely debunked Ned's accusations, instead of stupidly and proudly confirming them. Yes, 3 blond kids in a row were very unlikely... But not wholly impossible.

Rhaenyra's kids would be more problematic, as they didn't look like any of their supposed parents, nor did their bear any strong resemblance to either Baratheons or Arryns. I mean, if they had, the Blacks would have surely used it in their propaganda and the boys could have had somme good retorts to the "strong" accusations.

As to Baelor, I am sure that his appearance did contribute to the negative PR of Daeron II's regime. Since people already disliked Dornish influence at court, I am sure that his looking like his mother didn't help. Particularly since Daemon had those patented Targaryen looks. IMHO, Baelor's appearance goes a long way towards explaining why he wasn't able to make up for Daeron's unmartial nature in the eyes of the critics of the regime, who extolled Daemon's martial knightliness.