Jon and Val.

[to steel]

I'm rather neutral to those ships. Initially I thought Jon-Dany would be somehow inevitable, mostly because of the HotU prophecies. Nowadays I think Dany will end up falling for Jon - after being burned a few too many times by dangerous, exciting guys like Daario and Euron; but the HotU prophecy doesn't indicate imo that Jon would feel the same way. It very well may be an unrequieted love. I used to dismiss Val as a tertiary character, but I think she might very well gain importance in the coming book. 

 

dont read too much in it sweetysunray.. you will feel dissappointed.  sometimes a bear is just a bear.

[sweetsunray]

 

dont read too much in it sweetysunray.. you will feel dissappointed.  sometimes a bear is just a bear.

 

I didn't say I expect Val to survive until the last book. As for the rest, let me decide for myself what would disappoint me or not, thank you.

[sweetsunray]

 

 

 

All we know about Wildling culture is from Jon's POV, though, and the one Wildling POV prologue chapter (whose main focus is not on culture anyway).

On this acoount, I do not think we can easily dismiss what Jon knows as insufficient and in the same time assume that Stannis knows better.

 

Jon certainly has his blinders but Jon has spent several months with them, listening to their song and stories, eating and sleeping and riding with them, debating their respective culture/systemic advantages and problems with Ygritte, and still, at the Wall, he wants to learn all he can about the cultures beyond the Wall, he has Leathers translating Wun Wun stories for him.

I also disagree with the comparative examle of Ned/Cat. IMO it is not proportional, we are talking about the man's understanding of the culture he lived in for months, while Ned/Cat had to do with deliberate lies. I insist that it would paint Jon as quite the simpleton, and especially the scenario where everything unfolds in his favour unbeknown to him --steal and marry the "princess", become the king-- would make Jon's story somewhat of a parallel to Pate the pigboy's story.

 

Stannis on the other hand has had some sessions with Mance, and judging by Stannis' personality, their content must be focused on the common enemy. It is not likely that he'd interrogate Mance on Wildling culture, which is also supported by his quote "good, I won't suffer more kings" (paraphrasing) in regards to Mance's baby and the info he got from Jon that the baby is no king because his father was. Stannis has his blinders too, his own rightness pretty much, and little insight.

 

Again, being married to the supposed Queen of the Freefolk does not make him King in any meaningful way. But first of all we must establish whether Val is that, in the first place.

 

 

ETA - although apparently I do not find it convincing, you might like this thread, it's quite interesting.

 

 

Yes, we know about wildling culture through Jon's POV, who in that same POV while with the wildlings needs convincing about certain things. All I'm saying is that exactly while his experience makes him more understanding and knowledgeable than any other person south of the Wall, it also makes him not question his interpretations and ideas about it. And even despite his personal experience how a wildling woman ends up regarding herself as his because in her opinion he "stole" her (Ygritte), he still has difficulty in transferring this to the Val situation.

 

You are correct that several hours of conversation between Stannis and Mance doesn't make him a better expert than Jon. You are also correct he wouldn't have had hours of "wildling culture instructions" by Mance. But the man has also a different goal and position than Jon. Since the first Davos chapter we learn that Stannis is pretty much an atheist, but he does believe in power and shows a cunning in using beliefs and symbolism of completely alien cultures for his own ends. He's an atheist and yet performs the mummer's show with the burning of the 7 and taking the sword out of the statue. And with time we see him adopting more and more deceptive symbolism, with the glamored lightbringer for example. He's basically adopting Varys' words to Tyrion about how people believe where power resides in cooperation with Mel. Mel uses Stannis, but Stannis uses Mel just as much. And so he ends up adopting all the R'hllor business, for the most part to be the "power" in the eyes of the Queen's men. King's Men follow Stannis for Stannis. Queen's men follow Stannis for the R'hllor stuff. Stannis is playing and catering to both factions.

 

What does he want from the wildlings? He wants them to bend the knee and follow him. So, it seems entirely logical to me that he'd inquire with Mance how he could accomplish that. He can ask Jon about this, and Jon warns him "well it doesn't work this or that way". But Mance is the one who managed to become the king-beyond-the-wall and gather all the wildlings to accept him. And I think this in part is what Stannis and Mance discussed.

 

Now, I'm not saying Stannis is aware of Val considering herself stolen by Jon. I think that part is Val's own game, outside of Stannis' awareness. But I do think Stannis did plan the kneeling ceremony based on Mance's and possibly Val's input.

 

As for comparing Jon's blinders with those of Cat and Ned... Many people regard Cat and Ned stupid and dumb for overlooking certain clues, especially since they're playing at detective. But I don't regard them as stupid for those instances, exactly because it's human and related to cognitive dissonance (and everybody does that in one way or another). Nor do I think Jon is stupid for not realizing Stannis' and Val's subtle game. On top of that, Jon is young, inexperienced and was not even raised to be a poltical leader. Plus Ned and Cat weren't cyvasse players themselves. Ned's been pretty much a straightforward and at-face-value person to begin with.  

[ShadowCat Rivers]

 

What does he want from the wildlings? He wants them to bend the knee and follow him. So, it seems entirely logical to me that he'd inquire with Mance how he could accomplish that. He can ask Jon about this, and Jon warns him "well it doesn't work this or that way". But Mance is the one who managed to become the king-beyond-the-wall and gather all the wildlings to accept him. And I think this in part is what Stannis and Mance discussed.

 

Now, I'm not saying Stannis is aware of Val considering herself stolen by Jon. I think that part is Val's own game, outside of Stannis' awareness. But I do think Stannis did plan the kneeling ceremony based on Mance's and possibly Val's input.

 

Well, I am quite convinced that it does not work that way.

 

I believe the show is performed as a display of power (both suppresive and protective power) and for breaking their morale by having them kneel and symbolically burn their gods. "That's it from now on if you want what I have to give you". Val is not in voluntarily; Stannis wants to "sell" her presense there as a symbol of integration, but under his terms. If he was to use Val for what power she, on her own right, represents for the free folf, he wouldn't make them kneel. There's a point made in the difference between the two acceptance "ceremonies" (this one by Stannis, and latter one by Jon) with Jon also concerned with the appropriate trappings of power that he should apply.

 

About the stealing part, I agree it's her own game (and Jon's, if she has her way) and no one else's. Though I don't think it's likely, I don't exclude the possibility; the paraphernalia is what I disagree with the most.

[bemused]

Ingelheim said :

 

"I think both her and her Dalla are the closest thing we've seen to Old Gods priests."

(Sorry, quote stopped working after I had to restore content a few times..) ;)

 

Exactly. I saw this much earlier, but didn't have time to finish my response..and in the meantime lots has been added (which I'll get to at the end.) I think all the threads that link Val to valkyries are a little off the mark. I think she fits in a historical context more than a mythological one, though still founded in the Norse culture, and religious practices.

 

She seems to me to be GRRM's version of a vǫlva or völva (Old Norse and Icelandic respectively) - anglicized for literary purposes as "Vala" - which resonates with both Val and Dalla. For me , the thing is - these women were not just in the Norse mythology, but some actual women's graves have been found showing signs of their vocation...so historically they existed. GRRM seems to use myths symbolically, to varying degrees ... and bases some of his religions loosely on religions of our world.. But he absolutely borrows from history, while adding his own touches..

 

So there's a bit of difference between say, the abundance of Odin symbolism around Bloodraven (who, after all is attached to the trees the Free Folk associate with their gods.. yet is not a god himself..) and the subtle hints of religious officials/ priestesses (not gods or mythological beings) around Val and Dalla..(and I too,would include Tormund).

 

I always warn myself not to assume too much, because although I feel sure there are enough clues to suppose GRRM has based Val and Dalla on the "Vala"..  we can't say how closely he'll follow their model. I'm leaning heavily toward Val being specifically a spækona - seer or prophetess..

 

Here's a quick rundown from Wikipedia if anyone likes... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lva

 

Moving on to additions made later in the day, I absolutely cannot see either Mance or Val advising on Stannis' submission ceremony. First, if we're right about Val's position as a priestess, she would be in grave danger of being burnt herself if Stannis (at the time of her capture), and particularly Mel, realised her significance. ... Mance would know Val stood a better chance of survival as simply Dalla's biological sister (which I'm not entirely sure she is) than as Dalla's sister in a religious calling. Stannis wants to let her maintain her dignity , since he hopes (right or wrong) to use her to "wed" the wildlings to the Seven Kingdoms. He wouldn't want her to be seen to be dishonoured in any way. I'm sure she would have refused to kneel, and he wouldn't press the issue, publicly. She offers to marry Stannis' choice in exchange for Mance's life..but we never hear that she offered to kneel.

 

Mel would need no advice to know that burning weirwood branches would be a gesture of utter rejection of the old gods (not to mention an offense against them) and if there had been a weirwood growing close by, I'm sure she would have had them burn the whole tree . Fortunately for the grove we visit with Jon, it's half a day away. (Bad as I feel about it, I suspect these branches may be broken bits of the weirwood sapling Bran saw growing in the kitchen of the Nightfort. Jon thinks of the NF being readied for Stannis and Selyse just a few sentences earlier.)

 

Since Mel sees any other god as basically an incarnation of, or servant of the Great Other, it's all too obvious what her opinion of Val would be, if she had any idea that Val was , in any way , her counterpart in the old religion.

 

Val herself remains stoic throughout the ceremony. She may stand beside Stannis (placed there), but she's emotionless.. seems removed. 

 

Val stood beside him, tall and fair. They had crowned her with a simple circlet of dark

bronze, yet she looked more regal in bronze than Stannis did in gold. Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching. 

 

She looked more regal, etc. = she has more nobility of character (in Jon's eyes, and probably that of the wildlings)

 

Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching. - suggests that she's steeling herself not to flinch . She's not naturally emotionless.. look at her reactions when Dalla was giving birth.

 

Then we get GRRM strangely evoking Lot's wife.. Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away.

 

Lot's wife looked back at what had been. She had not devoutly turned her back on it. The same is true of Val. She does look back. She is looking back through all her coming actions, trying to find a new path for her people, but one that doesn't require denying or forgetting who they are. "She will not weep nor look away." - That "will" implies a strong determination. And what is it she will not look away from... only what's occurring before her ,or also what she looks back to? Jon thinks , The women are the strong ones. - perhaps not always, but in this case, yes. I definitely don't think she's collaborating with Stannis.

 

I could go on at length .. but I've written reams on the subject in the past. (I think someone linked to my old thread a couple of pages back) ...Here are a few points that I think are pertinent.

 

Val doesn't make Jon change her quarters.. he does that himself while she's absent.. he says to make room for Selyse .. but also, I suspect, as protection for Val, (wise, in light of the nature of Axell Florent's demands to see her). She's much safer with his guards around her, not Selyse's men... But Val demanded he bring her Monster to her, because of Shireen. (and maybe other reasons)

 

Wildlings don't kneel to their own king or queen either. So I don't think Val in any way influenced the poor sods who knelt to save their lives . They may one day consider her their queen (of sorts) but not yet.

 

Much is made of whether Jon has stolen Val. And Ygritte would surely think he had ... But I think women of Val's particular status may be outside the normal bride stealing practice. Mance never says he "stole" Dalla - he "met" her on his way back from WF. By chance? Or did she arrange it ? (Did she "know where she must go" to meet him?).. As beautiful as she is, and as humbly equipped as she was leaving CB, Val apparently had no worries about being stolen, or set upon, on her way to Tormund. (And she knew where she must go.)

 

Here's what I suspect is important: the Free Folk follow the strong leader - the one they feel can lead them to victory (however they define it). Naturally, if that leader has his own seer, one who is aiding him against his opponents.. that's an added strength, in their eyes. The two don't have to be a couple (sexually).. but it might be ideal if they were.

 

Tormund tries to nudge Jon in that direction by suggesting he steal Val (Why not? It worked once. ..and it wouldn't actually be stealing if Val was seen to meet him halfway.) Even when it's plain Jon's vow to take no wives and father no children gets in the way, ( a vow that will now be counterproductive, and the first of the outmoded additions likely to be dropped, IMO).. even then, Val tries to make the alliance..

 

“How did you fare with Tormund?” asked Val. “Ask me a year from now. The hard part still awaits me. The part where I convince mine own to eat this meal I’ve cooked for them. None of them are going to like the taste, I fear.”

“Let me help.”

“You have. You brought me Tormund.”

“I can do more.”

Why not? thought Jon. They are all convinced she is a princess.

 

If Jon would get intimate with her, her nature could be revealed with the bond that would be formed, but failing that, Val and Tormund have to proceed with caution in gradually enlightening Jon and trying to help... because of Mel being around. And of course Jon is quite wrong about how Val could help.. it's not by looking like a princess, but by aiding him in his battle plans and other serious undertakings.

 

So Tormund's people saw them riding off side by side and saw Ghost hanging out with her. This is all to good effect, but maybe not as good as if they were a couple.  

 

Maybe a prediction...

 

I think Val will be important over the next two books, even if she dies before the end.(There may be wildling prophecies to be revealed) If she's important to how the wildlings settle in (and perhaps instrumental in more coming in)... if the Free Folk are to help re-populate the north, and if it's important to the story that they be assimilated somehow ... then I would have some doubts as to whether Jon and Dany would ever marry (or Jon and Arya).. he might lose the Free Folk if he married his aunt or cousin.

 

 

[Ingelheim]

Extraordinary post, bemused.