Major character(s) on a downward spiral

[Inigo Sand]

I read somewhere that GRRM said one of his ‘good’ characters would descend further into evil than Walter White. I remember there was some discussion of this in another thread, but I can’t find it again so I’ll put some thoughts in a new one.

I’m assuming that he means a major POV character who starts off as unambiguously ‘good’, but increasingly commits more villainous acts either with good intentions, or through descent into madness. Here are my thoughts on major characters who could take this path, roughly in order:

Daenerys. Dany’s arc has been perhaps the most dramatic, from powerless exile through emerging leader to ruler with significant power (perhaps the most significant power, if she can learn to direct her dragons). Some of the moments on her rise to power have been hugely uplifting, but from the sack of Astapor onwards there have also been glimpses of her as uncompromising and cruel. A black-and-white, absolutist stance is appealing in a character fighting against the odds, but in a powerful monarch it can spiral into crushing dictatorship. Against that, Dany learns quickly, reflects on her mistakes, and is compassionate when she can see things from others’ points of view. I think though if she was seriously betrayed or witnessed a bad enough atrocity against her people she would be capable of ordering indiscriminate destruction on a grand scale. (Incidentally, from the TV series, did anyone else see her appearance on the walls of Meereen under the Targaryen banner as slightly ominous?).

Stannis. I’m less sure about putting Stannis here, as he is already morally rather questionable in my opinion – righteous and just up to a point, driven by duty rather than power or self-interest, but he has already authorised human sacrifice and shown willingness to subvert his principles to attain his ends. Assuming he wins out (or at least survives) at Winterfell, put him in a situation where he is desperate for victory and it’s unclear what lengths he will go to. On the other hand, he doesn’t seem particularly vulnerable to a descent into madness, and he is one character whom I could see going through a darker phase out of (to him) necessity, to emerge as a just if harsh ruler before the end. Except that if he abandons Shireen, morally speaking he is lost.

Sansa. Sansa has grown on me across the books, from indifference in AGoT to eliciting empathy while trapped in King’s Landing and becoming distinctly interesting in AFFC. She is kind, still has some ideals, and seems genuinely thoughtful. However, she has been exposed to the den of mistrust that is King’s Landing and the manoeuverings of Cersei and Littlefinger, and much will depend on how much bitterness she has bottled up and how she handles her situation with Littlefinger (I can’t wait for the ‘controversial’ Sansa chapter). I hope Sansa will become a clever but compassionate lady or queen; my fear is that she has learned too much distrust and will become destructively manipulative. A dark end for Sansa would be particularly sad, as (at least as yet) she has only been trying to survive and hasn’t sought power like Daenerys or chosen to take vengeance like Arya.

Arya. Arya is already becoming quite controversial, undeservedly so in my view. She is no longer the endearing, innocent and spirited little girl who was running around Winterfell, but why should she be given what she has witnessed and gone through? With her fighting spirit (playful initially, real when exposed to injustice and threats) it’s unsurprising that she has chosen to seek revenge. She isn’t ready to go up against the likes of Cersei, Ilyn Payne or the Freys on her own, and her size is against her becoming a conventional warrior, so training with the Faceless Men is a logical step for her. If she avoids losing herself as a Faceless Woman and reclaims Needle and what she sees it as standing for, she just might be able to avenge her family. The test, in my view, for Arya going down a seriously dark path is whether she can keep her sense of vengeance and mission (and identity as Arya Stark), rather than becoming a random killer seduced by her own growing abilities to take life. She may even survive to become a warrior queen and Mother of Wolves.

I’m less convinced about Tyrion and Jon Snow. Tyrion is to me a likeable but morally ambiguous character who has been badly treated by his family and certainly has the capacity to be destructive. However, he has already gone through a dark patch and seems to have come out of it relatively unscathed. Jon has been a balanced and basically good character throughout and there is nothing to suggest that he will go down a particularly dark path, assuming that he survives (or is resurrected from) his injuries – unless this in itself changes him, or he becomes influenced towards delusions of power by Melisandre. I don’t see his execution of Janos Slynt as evidence a dark turn; the man was persistently disobeying orders in a time of war, and as a young Lord Commander Jon needed to exert his authority.

[AtlusTurned]

I'd say Sansa and Daenerys are the most likely out of those. I like to think Dany will spiral into madness and die at the hands of one of her own Queensguard after unleashing her dragons on the city while (Aegon?) marches into King's Landing, as this would parallel historical events wherein GRRM has said he hides much of his foreshadowing.

[lyannaisalive]

Yeah I think it has to be Sansa. Everything she has done to this point has been in betrayal of her family because she believed in the white knights and wanting to be a princess but she now knows that doesn't exist. I think she is definitely going to go dark especially with Petyr Balish around though I really hope they dont sleep together that idea makes me gag. I think Dany is already evil IMO.

[Batbob45]

Marg Tyrell-her family luck got to end sometime

[Inigo Sand]

Yeah I think it has to be Sansa. Everything she has done to this point has been in betrayal of her family because she believed in the white knights and wanting to be a princess but she now knows that doesn't exist. I think she is definitely going to go dark especially with Petyr Balish around though I really hope they dont sleep together that idea makes me gag.

That's my fear too, that the 'controversial' part is that she seduces him or at least goes along with him... she could kill him, but I think she would still want his protection at this stage.

I'd say Sansa and Daenerys are the most likely out of those. I like to think Dany will spiral into madness and die at the hands of one of her own Queensguard after unleashing her dragons on the city while (Aegon?) marches into King's Landing, as this would parallel historical events wherein GRRM has said he hides much of his foreshadowing.

I think Dany is definitely a strong contender, and it fits with the kingdom being ravaged by ice (white walkers) and fire (dragons). Another scenario is that Arya becomes one of her Queensguard and is the one who assassinates her - perhaps unlikely, but somehow satisfying if Dany does lose it.

Marg Tyrell-her family luck got to end sometime

:) I agree about their luck running out, though I'm not sure I see Marg as the evil queen...

[lyannaisalive]

Marg Tyrell-her family luck got to end sometime

I hope the Tyrell family is just absolutely destroyed which is possible. THey are being attacked in the reach by the IB and by Aegon could be marching on KL soon.

[Shebara]

Marg Tyrell-her family luck got to end sometime

yeah I think there is a lot of Anne Boylyn in Margery

[Endymion I Targaryen]

I think more of Stannis becoming evil when he then he learns he lost the title of Azor Ahai and Mel's support.

[TheHouseHB]

Arya Stark

Cersei - Well obviously

Brienne of Tarth

Stannis

Aegon Targaryen

Littlefinger

[Zoravar Singh]

I do think that out of these characters, Dany is the most likely to descend into evil further. As you rightly pointed out, having a black and white view of things in life, and an absurd amount of power is probably a recipe for disaster. This moral absolutism makes her group totally different people into the same category. Remember how she equated Ned Stark to Tywin Lannister, despite all of Barristan Selmy's explanations?

Stannis, who started out as a straight but harsh guy, has already become a rather despicable character. In the beginning, his whole charm was the uncompromising nature of his ethics ( Ser Davos' fingers are a testament to that), but lately, he has l been losing distinction between right and wrong.

As for Arya, seeking vengeance in itself is totally acceptable, but the idea is that the vengeance stop at some sane point. I really hope she's not the character who becomes evil.

[Uldra I]

I read somewhere that GRRM said one of his ‘good’ characters would descend further into evil than Walter White. ...

Interesting post. Can you post a link to the article? I'd love to read it. :)

I do think that out of these characters, Dany is the most likely to descend into evil further. As you rightly pointed out, having a black and white view of things in life, and an absurd amount of power is probably a recipe for disaster. This moral absolutism makes her group totally different people into the same category. Remember how she equated Ned Stark to Tywin Lannister, despite all of Barristan Selmy's explanations?

Stannis, who started out as a straight but harsh guy, has already become a rather despicable character. In the beginning, his whole charm was the uncompromising nature of his ethics ( Ser Davos' fingers are a testament to that), but lately, he has l been losing distinction between right and wrong.

As for Arya, seeking vengeance in itself is totally acceptable, but the idea is that the vengeance stop at some sane point. I really hope she's not the character who becomes evil.

Sansa's story has already started to have the nasty feel of going dark. Plus I've always thought her losing Lady was a foreshadow of terrible things to come.

imo, Stannis' path has already turned pretty dark. Arya's too.

The thought of Dany going to the dark side has been with me since the city of bones, but somehow I think she will come out of this ok. Besides what will they do with those dragons if she turns evil and is killed? :eek:

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I’m less convinced about Tyrion and Jon Snow. Tyrion is to me a likeable but morally ambiguous character who has been badly treated by his family and certainly has the capacity to be destructive. However, he has already gone through a dark patch and seems to have come out of it relatively unscathed. Jon has been a balanced and basically good character throughout and there is nothing to suggest that he will go down a particularly dark path, assuming that he survives (or is resurrected from) his injuries – unless this in itself changes him, or he becomes influenced towards delusions of power by Melisandre. I don’t see his execution of Janos Slynt as evidence a dark turn; the man was persistently disobeying orders in a time of war, and as a young Lord Commander Jon needed to exert his authority.

I believe it's Tyrion. GRRM even said in an interview that he likes Tyrion cause of his dark thoughts, or something along those lines.

I don't see how Sansa has higher chance of becoming dark than Tyrion, when Tyrion has been shown to do dark things and Sansa hasn't, most of these "dark" things are speculated by fans.

[Doorlocks]

Daenerys.

Stannis.

Sansa.

Arya.

Honestly, the only one of those that I consider still unambiguously good is Sansa. Daenerys, Stannis, and Arya are among my favorite characters, but each has already had at least one major moral event horizon. Tyrion is likewise already a very grey character. Jon is also mostly good; not so much so as Sansa, but still a valid option. I personally would find Sansa's dark turn more interesting, however.

How many unambigusouly good characters are there left in the story, anyways? Tommen, Bran, Rickon(?), Shireen, Gendry, Brienne...

It could be Breinne, actually. Maybe her betrayal of Jaime isn't a ruse.

[Tyrion'sNose]

Mabey death or rebirth will make Jon more evil. It could be Arya too( she is becoming an assassin for a cult to the god of death)

[GreatGatsby]

Dany duh.

[Uldra I]

OMG. I just can't comprehend the inexplicable love for Sansa and Stannias on these forums. If, as they say, everyone chooses their favorites because the character resonates with their own personalities, then I just don't know what to think about all those RL flesh and blood Sansa and Stannis lovers out there. How much of the human population do you think they make up?

[RoamingRonin]

I read somewhere that GRRM said one of his ‘good’ characters would descend further into evil than Walter White. I remember there was some discussion of this in another thread, but I can’t find it again so I’ll put some thoughts in a new one.

He never said that. He said Walter White was a bigger monster than anyone in Westeros and that he "needed to do something about that". He was obviously joking.

Link to the article: http://variety.com/2013/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-walter-white-is-a-bigger-monster-than-anyone-in-westeros-1200617124/

Link to the blog post: http://grrm.livejournal.com/337511.html

[Princess Sand Snake]

For me watching Walter White was just a sad train wreck of an experience. I think that either Jon or Sansa having the Walter White experience would be the two that would shock the most and elicit the most emotional response.

I don't think that this is what GRRM really meant by the article, but if it is what he meant, I think that these two candidates are the ones that pretty much haven't already done some morally questionable things.

[Uldra I]

He never said that. He said Walter White was a bigger monster than anyone in Westeros and that he "needed to do something about that". He was obviously joking.

Link to the article: http://variety.com/2013/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-walter-white-is-a-bigger-monster-than-anyone-in-westeros-1200617124/

Link to the blog post: http://grrm.livejournal.com/337511.html

Thanks for the links... I agree, seems like humor to me. Still wouldn't be surprised if he did do something along those lines. If he does though, I'd bet he already had it planned in the main plot from the beginning.

[Northernmonkey]

As someone pointed out above he didn't say this would actually happen, in fact from what he says it sounds like the opposite.

The one main POV who I think might go down an evil road is Tyrion. I'm convinced he's going to double cross Dany, and I can see him doing all kinds of things to get his hands on Casterly Rock.