The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Stark Womens Slim Fit T-Shirt
Game of Thrones Stark Womens Slim Fit T-Shirt
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

why'd they listen


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 greywind93

greywind93

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 244 posts

Posted 11 July 2014 - 07:17 PM

why did whent, hightower, and dayne listen to rheagar.  He was not there king. they were sent by there king to bring him back they did not do this they sent him back. if they would have brought him back the trident might have gone diffrently( depending  on who challenged who between rheagar and robert) or even if the trident didn't change maybe the sack would have played out diffrent.  these guys who talk a big game of serving the king  at the TOJ. Abandoned there king and failed at bringing rheagar back and making themselves at service to there king chosing to take prefrence of rheagar over  the vows they hold so dear



#2 BearQueen87

BearQueen87

    And who would ever dare to love a dragon?

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,217 posts

Posted 11 July 2014 - 07:27 PM

Well, first, Hightower was sent to fetch Rhagar back to King's Landing; Dayne and Whent were already at the Tower of Joy.

 

Second, how would the Sack have changed if Rhaegar still died but had the other KG? It's Rhaegar's death that causes Tywin Lannister to finally take a side, Robert's.

 

Third, we don't know what Aerys' order were. It could be "find my son and tell him to come to King's Landing." There's noting there about coming back to KL with him.

 

Fourth their "big game" they are talking at the ToJ when Ned arrives is AFTER Aerys and Rhaegar and Aegon are all dead, and they've probably found out about this all at the same time. The fact that they are still defending their vows...well, that's where we get into R+L = Legit Jon territory so I'll spare you that.



#3 Acolyte of Radmure

Acolyte of Radmure

    West Coast Lannisters of Casterly Rock, ya dig?

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,095 posts

Posted 11 July 2014 - 09:23 PM

He's the Crown Prince. 

Hightower's hardly going to drag him back is he. 



#4 Lady Blizzardborn

Lady Blizzardborn

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,826 posts

Posted 13 July 2014 - 11:09 PM

They may have considered him their king since the guy sitting on the throne was bonkers.

 

It's pretty obvious that Rhaegar planned to depose his father after suppressing the rebellion.  He even told Jaime (the new kid on the KG!) something about changing things.  It's possible that Whent, Hightower, and Dayne had already switched their allegiance to Rhaegar over Aerys.



#5 James Arryn

James Arryn

    Vice President of the Autocracy

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,974 posts

Posted 13 July 2014 - 11:11 PM

Ned would seem to know.

#6 Bryanfury

Bryanfury

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 644 posts

Posted 13 July 2014 - 11:14 PM

He's the Crown Prince. 

Hightower's hardly going to drag him back is he. 


He would if Aerys ordered him to, according to the legitimate Jon logic. He'd cut Rhaegars head off and fiddle with the corpse if Aerys said to do it. Cause you know, KG swore oaths etc.

#7 BearQueen87

BearQueen87

    And who would ever dare to love a dragon?

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,217 posts

Posted 13 July 2014 - 11:14 PM

Ned would seem to know.

 

*shakes fist* Damn you Joffery!



#8 James Arryn

James Arryn

    Vice President of the Autocracy

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,974 posts

Posted 13 July 2014 - 11:18 PM

*shakes fist* Damn you Joffery!


Lol, what I mean is, he would seem to know, and still thinks of them as uber-honourable, and so I assume they had legit reasons. Hence the whole 'I went to the Starbucks, I thought you might be there.-Nay, if we had, we'd have never stayed. The Kingsguard does not wait in line.' rigmarole.

#9 Ygrain

Ygrain

    One who prefers walking around unlabelled

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,455 posts

Posted 14 July 2014 - 02:41 AM

They may have considered him their king since the guy sitting on the throne was bonkers.

 

It's pretty obvious that Rhaegar planned to depose his father after suppressing the rebellion.  He even told Jaime (the new kid on the KG!) something about changing things.  It's possible that Whent, Hightower, and Dayne had already switched their allegiance to Rhaegar over Aerys.

Would Ned have thought them shining examples of KG if they switched allegiance? Would they proclaim they would keep Aerys on his throne?



#10 Foibles

Foibles

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 25 posts

Posted 14 July 2014 - 03:04 AM

If they were so willing to drop their vows to Aerys and join Rhaegar then why does Jaime take so much flack for being a kingslayer? Was Barristan not in the know about Rhaegar's plans?

 

Seems to me that if the KG were more willing to listen to the crown prince over the actual king then the KG aren't the super honorable knights they are made out to be.



#11 Ygrain

Ygrain

    One who prefers walking around unlabelled

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,455 posts

Posted 14 July 2014 - 04:27 AM

Barristan himself says that he was not part of Rhaegar's circle.

 

As for the KG obeying Rhaegar's orders, GRRM said that they indeed obeyed the members of the royal family, as well, so as long as there was no countermanding order from Aerys, it was perfectly legit for them to obey Rhaegar.



#12 Ygritte

Ygritte

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 927 posts

Posted 14 July 2014 - 05:46 AM

Lol, what I mean is, he would seem to know, and still thinks of them as uber-honourable, and so I assume they had legit reasons. Hence the whole 'I went to the Starbucks, I thought you might be there.-Nay, if we had, we'd have never stayed. The Kingsguard does not wait in line.' rigmarole.

 

:rofl:



#13 Lady Blizzardborn

Lady Blizzardborn

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,826 posts

Posted 14 July 2014 - 10:45 PM

Would Ned have thought them shining examples of KG if they switched allegiance? Would they proclaim they would keep Aerys on his throne?

Well I'd ask him, but he's dead.



#14 Lady Blizzardborn

Lady Blizzardborn

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,826 posts

Posted 14 July 2014 - 10:48 PM

If they were so willing to drop their vows to Aerys and join Rhaegar then why does Jaime take so much flack for being a kingslayer? Was Barristan not in the know about Rhaegar's plans?

 

Seems to me that if the KG were more willing to listen to the crown prince over the actual king then the KG aren't the super honorable knights they are made out to be.

Big difference between switching loyalty to someone who is sane, and killing a crazy man.  They could have continued to protect Aerys with Rhaegar sitting on the throne (in fact it would be part of their job).  They were also all old enough to know they could have stopped the plan to blow up the city without killing the crazy man.  

 

Yeah it's super honorable to take orders from a pyromaniac who has long since lost his marbles.  Protect him, sure, but at some point honor actually would have demanded NOT following orders from Aerys.



#15 Ygrain

Ygrain

    One who prefers walking around unlabelled

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,455 posts

Posted 15 July 2014 - 12:37 AM

Well I'd ask him, but he's dead.

I don't think we really need to - Ned thinks highly of Barristan, but doesn't mention him as an examplary KG and says that those exemplary KG don't exist now. Now, what did Barry do? Switched allegiance to a (then) honourable man under the circumstances when he really didn't have much choice.



#16 Lady Blizzardborn

Lady Blizzardborn

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,826 posts

Posted 15 July 2014 - 09:42 AM

I don't think we really need to - Ned thinks highly of Barristan, but doesn't mention him as an examplary KG and says that those exemplary KG don't exist now. Now, what did Barry do? Switched allegiance to a (then) honourable man under the circumstances when he really didn't have much choice.

What Barry did was choose his own life.  Not something Ned has a problem with, but not exemplary KG either.  I don't think it's the switching allegiance that bothered Ned so much as Barristan putting his own life first.  The three who died at ToJ were willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, Barristan apparently wasn't.  Which actually makes Barry way more pragmatic than the honorable heroes who died.  Because of his choice to continue and serve Robert, he is now in a position to help Daenerys.   Like you say, he didn't have much choice...the author made him do it. ;)

 

Interestingly, Jaime might well have been prepared to die for what he did.  He saved a lot of people, but he knew he was breaking every rule there was about being a KG and there could be serious consequences.  Is Jaime more honorable than Barristan?



#17 RumHam

RumHam

    Commoner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,179 posts

Posted 15 July 2014 - 10:50 AM

If they were so willing to drop their vows to Aerys and join Rhaegar then why does Jaime take so much flack for being a kingslayer? 

 

Because Jaime actually went through with killing the king. If Whent, Hightower and Dayne were supporting Rhaegar's plan to call a Great Council to depose Aerys, the rebellion interfered and nobody ever found out about their intentions. 



#18 Ygrain

Ygrain

    One who prefers walking around unlabelled

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,455 posts

Posted 15 July 2014 - 12:37 PM

 

Because Jaime actually went through with killing the king. If Whent, Hightower and Dayne were supporting Rhaegar's plan to call a Great Council to depose Aerys, the rebellion interfered and nobody ever found out about their intentions. 

Plus, I think they were walking a tight line to counter Aerys within the leeway of their vows, without actually breaking any. Rhaegar didn't usurp anything, he would have deposed Aerys in a legal way. I think that a part of the reason why the KG had to stay at ToJ was to prevent them from getting in a situation when Aerys might have ordered them something they wouldn't want to obey.