Dr. Pepper Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Shae also tried to kill him, and possibly attacked him first ( I don't remember the details from the book, but Shae grabbed a knife in the show when he hadn't done anything and was unarmed).Fine, let us agree that Tyrion saved Sansa for Jaime. But what was it that prevented him from RAPING her? Yeah Lancel, the particiant in Robert's murder, was surely a better person (I agree he is on a path to redemption, but this does not mean that his slate is wiped clean). So was Genna, who wanted to kill the surrendered Riverrun garrison, which had been guaranteed safe passage, and din't go ahead with it only because Jaime forbade it. I do agree that Kevan appears to be a better person, but then he hasn't been featured heavily enough to know for sure. And Daven has hardly been featured at all, so all we're doing is guessing his character. Are you serious? No one gets bonus points for not raping someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoravar Singh Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Essos, not Dorne. Anyway, reread the passage with the slave girl in Illyrio's estate and the one in the brothel at Selhorys and tell me it isn't rape. Well, actually don't, the mods dislike rape apologies. So now you claim that purchasing sex at a brothel is rape!And as for Ilyrio's manse, the girl agreed to wait in his bed, and that he would fuck her after having dinner went drunk. How on earth is this rape? Are you serious? No one gets bonus points for not raping someone. Yet I do expect people to be given bonus points for rejecting the cruel commands of Tywin Lannister, the same way Ser Gregor would've gotten bonus points had he refused to kill the Targayren prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogon'sWrath Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Shae also tried to kill him, and possibly attacked him first ( I don't remember the details from the book, but Shae grabbed a knife in the show when he hadn't done anything and was unarmed).Fine, let us agree that Tyrion saved Sansa for Jaime. But what was it that prevented him from RAPING her? Yeah Lancel, the particiant in Robert's murder, was surely a better person (I agree he is on a path to redemption, but this does not mean that his slate is wiped clean). So was Genna, who wanted to kill the surrendered Riverrun garrison, which had been guaranteed safe passage, and din't go ahead with it only because Jaime forbade it. I do agree that Kevan appears to be a better person, but then he hasn't been featured heavily enough to know for sure. And Daven has hardly been featured at all, so all we're doing is guessing his character. The show likes to whitewash Tyrion. Shae never attacked him first in the books. Tyrion just straight up killed her. Yea, she might have alerted the guards, but the greater part of Tyrion's motivation was to get revenge on a whore who never loved him in the first place. Now, Tyiron is a grey character, and I disagree with the OP saying that he's evil. That said, what I would consider his two true altruistic deeds came in the first two books: the saddle for Bran and his saving Sansa from Joffrey. And even those have might have other motivations. You already touched on another motivation for what he did for Sansa. And part of what he did for Bran could be a bit of a bribe to get him to stay quiet about what he saw, though I do think he legitimately felt bad for the kid so at least part of it was doing a good thing for the sake of doing a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Shae also tried to kill him, and possibly attacked him first ( I don't remember the details from the book, but Shae grabbed a knife in the show when he hadn't done anything and was unarmed).Ah, you are confused by the show. That explains everything. Seriously, the show did a marvelous job at whitewashing Tyrion. So now you claim that purchasing sex at a brothel is rape!And as for Ilyrio's manse, the girl agreed to wait in his bed, and that he would fuck her after having dinner went drunk. How on earth is this rape?If the customer is fully aware that the prostitute is forced to do so and will be whipped if she doesn't comply, fully acknowledging himself that what he does is morally wrong? Seriously, is that even a question. Similar in Illyrio's manse. He even threatens to strangle her for his personal satisfaction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Yet I do expect people to be given bonus points for rejecting the cruel commands of Tywin Lannister, the same way Ser Gregor would've gotten bonus points had he refused to kill the Targayren prince. Yeah, sorry. No one gets bonus points for doing the right thing. We don't go around giving gold stars to people who don't rape and murder. I'm sure you can understand that people are just generally expected not to rape and murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoravar Singh Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 If the customer is fully aware that the prostitute is forced to do so and will be whipped if she doesn't comply, fully acknowledging himself that what he does is morally wrong? Seriously, is that even a question. Similar in Illyrio's manse. He even threatens to strangle her for his personal satisfaction! A rape is a legal wrong, not a moral wrong. As such it is upheld by laws and not ethical standards, so what Tyrion did was not rape even by 21st century law, let alone by Westerosi/Essosi standards. The relationship between the 'pimp' and the 'whore' is not his domain, and neither is the relationship between Ilyrio and the bedwarmer. They actively did with what he requested, so how on earth is it a rape? There was no resistance, either in terms of not complying, hitting back, or verbal protestations.His 'threat' is banter that he is fully aware that he will not carry out.Even the bedwarmer is aware, as she'd try to run and/or hit him if he actually inteded to kill her. The show likes to whitewash Tyrion. Shae never attacked him first in the books. Tyrion just straight up killed her. Yea, she might have alerted the guards, but the greater part of Tyrion's motivation was to get revenge on a whore who never loved him in the first place. I stand corrected about the seuqence of events. Yet do you think if Tyrion just walked back into the sewers, Shae would not have alerted the guards? He was here for his father, and was startled to find Shae in his father's bed. The incident with Shae was a kill or be killed scenario. Yeah, sorry. No one gets bonus points for doing the right thing. We don't go around giving gold stars to people who don't rape and murder. Yet not doing something wrong, even when commanded by Tywin Lannister to do it, is a testament to one's character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Uh oh, that argument goes ways I really don't appreciate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Actually, Tyrion is the most likeable of all the POV characters, save some of the starks/snows.He drinks and whores, but is at heart a very decent person. He refuses to commit martial rape, despite the orders of his father. He killed his father, aye, but this is the same person who (probably) knew that he was innocent and went along with the farce of a trial anyway and also ordered the rape of the girl Tyrion loved, and forced his son to witness it.He defends the honor of Sansa Stark from his nephew, despite receiving no direct gain from said defense ( at the time, he was not wed to Sansa). It's easy to read Tyrion's chapters and fall in love with him for his humor and intelligence but beneath all of that is a dark, scheming, vile, hypocritical, selfish, greedy little monster. You say he defends Sansa from Joffrey and that's true... but when Tywin presents Sansa to Tyrion on a platter he can't help but take it. He lusts for her and lusts for Shae as well -- he invents a love triangle. It's pathetic and sad. He does everything he can to blame everyone around him. Like with Tysha: he takes no blame for raping Tysha because his father commanded it. But he blames Jaime for telling him a lie even though Tywin commanded it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoravar Singh Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 You say he defends Sansa's from Joffrey and that's true... but when Tywin presents Sansa to Tyrion on a platter he can't help but take it. He lusts for her and lusts for Shae as well -- he invents a love triangle. It's pathetic and sad. On teh day of the wedding, he draw Sansa to the side and tells her that if she is not satisfied with the match, he would gladly cancel the wedding and let her marry Lancel instead. So, did he not offer Sansa an alternative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Actually, Tyrion is the most likeable of all the POV characters, save some of the starks/snows.He drinks and whores, but is at heart a very decent person. He refuses to commit martial rape, despite the orders of his father. He killed his father, aye, but this is the same person who (probably) knew that he was innocent and went along with the farce of a trial anyway and also ordered the rape of the girl Tyrion loved, and forced his son to witness it.He defends the honor of Sansa Stark from his nephew, despite receiving no direct gain from said defense ( at the time, he was not wed to Sansa). I love Tyrion; he's my favorite. But let's remember what he says in Volantis to "The Whore" he and Jorah go to see. When asked what Tyrion can provide for Dany, Tyrion gives a long list of things he's willing to do for Dany. The only thing he wants in return? to be allowed to rape and murder his sister, Cersei. He might be the most likable (which is subjective) but that doesn't hide the fact that he is quite dark. ETA: I don't think calling rape "not a moral wrong" is the best way to go about making your case.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Yet not doing something wrong, even when commanded by Tywin Lannister to do it, is a testament to one's character. No, not doing something wrong is the default expectation. While according to you, the default expectation is actually to rape and murder and not doing so is somehow going above and beyond to the point of requiring a gold medal ceremony. You are walking a fine line here, and are nearly apologizing for rape, which is completely unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 On teh day of the wedding, he draw Sansa to the side and tells her that if she is not satisfied with the match, he would gladly cancel the wedding and let her marry Lancel instead. So, did he not offer Sansa an alternative? Why offer an alternative on the day of the wedding? Why not say no at the council meeting like he did with Lady Lollys? He wanted to marry her, plain and simple. But by giving her the "option" he (in his twisted little mind) makes it her fault as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Why offer an alternative on the day of the wedding? Why not say no at the council meeting like he did with Lady Lollys? He wanted to marry her, plain and simple. But by giving her the "option" he (in his twisted little mind) makes it her fault as well. So, basically Tyrion can do no right either way. Nice debating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Tyrion is what HBO is trying to do with Cersei: act like a martyr of the world and society. He's a dwarf, she's a woman. Like that's justification for doing whatever they want and then claim "victim". Yes, it's easy to empathise with Tyrion because he's a better person than many others in Westeros, but he's not saint. And his whoring and drinking have nothing to do with it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 So, basically Tyrion can do no right either way. Nice debating. :rolleyes: Tyrion: "I'm not gonna marry Sansa." Tywin: "We'll marry her to Lancel." Tyrion: {snarky, sarcastic joke about Lancel's lance and the bedding} There. Tyrion doesn't marry Sansa and nothing changes. It would have been better if she did marry Lancel because Lancel had no chance of bedding her. Meanwhile, Tyrion calls her a child and disapproves of the whole affair but still attempts to bed her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 :rolleyes: Tyrion: "I'm not gonna marry Sansa." Tywin: "We'll marry her to Lancel." Tyrion: {snarky, sarcastic joke about Lancel's lance and the bedding} There. Tyrion doesn't marry Sansa and nothing changes. It would have been better if she did marry Lancel because Lancel had no chance of bedding her. Meanwhile, Tyrion calls her a child and disapproves of the whole affair but still attempts to bed her. Meanwhile in the actual books, a) Tyrion does not bed her. b) Tyrion gives her a choice to opt out. It really doesn't matter when. c) Tyrion is very respectful to her both before and after the wedding. Yes, Tyrion wanted to marry her and the idea of getting the North was appealing but that's hardly a crime. Did Lancel lose his cock or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyBanana Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Well, there is truth to his statement that Jaime has his sword and he's got his mind. Not unlike Jaime, he uses his weapon aggressively, recklessly, arrogantly, and quite often successfully. But the biggest issue is the pity factor. In the previous books (before aDwD), we still felt for him and his struggles but the honeymoon is over now and it gets annoying. The same will also happen to Jaime eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Did Lancel lose his cock or something? Re-read the actual books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 But, this is part of Tyrion's central conflict, eh? He hates his father, he hates his father's way of doing things, hates the level of cruelty in the 'sharp lessons'...but he derives everything he has and is from that same father and that father's ability to command respect and wealth. He has absorbed much of his father's teachings and can be ruthless when necessary, but early on, he attempts to always temper this, when he can, with some kind of sense of fairplay. We see him go out of his to be kind and help people. This is why, despite how he knows his family is in the wrong, he still works to support them, because without Lannister power he is nothing, has nothing, he's a dwarf in a society that finds dwarfs something to be laughed at and ostracized. So, he's conflicted about Sansa. He knows it's awful, but he can't bring himself to outright refuse his father...this is why he makes the offer to Sansa...if she does it, it lets him off the hook, he won't have to marry her and he stays in the semi good graces of his father and maintains power as a Lannister. In the same way, he wants her because she's beautiful, and hates himself for it, and resents her too, for not seeing beyond his appearance. This is why he almost has sex w/her and then backs off. And this why, post-murder Tyrion become so much uglier, because he started venting all of that rage that he uncorked when he killed Shae and his father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Re-read the actual books. A quick look at the Wiki tells me nothing either. Not that it changes much with the points I made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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