Make the bad man fly

[Dr. Pepper]

Meanwhile in the actual books,

a) Tyrion does not bed her.

B) Tyrion gives her a choice to opt out. It really doesn't matter when.

c) Tyrion is very respectful to her both before and after the wedding.

Yes, Tyrion wanted to marry her and the idea of getting the North was appealing but that's hardly a crime.

Did Lancel lose his cock or something?

1. There's no gold medal for not raping someone. There's not even a silver medal for not raping someone due to realizing that the other person cannot and will not be attracted to them.

2. It does matter when he gives her a 'choice'. He tried to offer this 'choice' immediately before heading into the sept. He could have brought her the choice before he decided he wanted Winterfell enough to not allow her a choice, or he could have even come to her with the choice sometime between when he decided for himself and when she was being dragged to the sept at knife point. Instead, he gives her a 'choice' at the precise moment there is no choice to be made. She's going to marry who they want, when they want, regardless of what she has to say about it.

3. There's not really a gold star given for being respectful to someone, especially if that someone is a hostage and the way she's treated directly effects the way one's brother is treated as a hostage.

No one is claiming that it's a crime that Tyrion wanted Winterfell. It's not even a crime that he desires Sansa. His thoughts aren't the issue here.

ETA: re Lancel, the relevant chapters are in AFFC where it's discovered that he hasn't bed his wife and has expressed complete disinterest in what she chooses to do.

[RoamingRonin]

A quick look at the Wiki tells me nothing either.

Not that it changes much with the points I made.

"If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins," said his father. "Kevan, is Lancel strong enough to wed, do you think?"

Ser Kevan hesitated. "If we bring the girl to his bedside, he could say the words . . . but to consummate, no . . . I would suggest one of the twins, but the Starks hold them both at Riverrun. They have Genna's boy Tion as well, else he might serve."

If Tyrion declined the marriage, Sansa would have wed Lancel. The marriage would have been private and not publicly embarrassing like the wedding Tyrion and Sansa had. There would have been no bedding. No consummation. Sansa wouldn't even have to be around Lancel except to visit his sickbed from time to time.

This highlights another issue: Tyrion creates all sorts of problems for himself.

[Howlin' Howland]

No one's mentioned the bard he had Bronn murder or his plans to lure Mord to Casterly Rock so that he could have him killed.

He probably has the best sense of humor of the POV characters, and I think his chapters are among the most enjoyable to read, but he absolutely has a very dark side to his personality.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1. There's no gold medal for not raping someone. There's not even a silver medal for not raping someone due to realizing that the other person cannot and will not be attracted to them.

But see, this thread is not about whether Tyrion deserves a gold, or silver, medal. This thread is about whether Tyrion is, as the OP put it, "evil to the core". And his behavior simply isn't proper for someone supposedly "evil to the core".

[Zoravar Singh]

No one's mentioned the bard he had Bronn murder or his plans to lure Mord to Casterly Rock so that he could have him killed.

He probably has the best sense of humor of the POV characters, and I think his chapters are among the most enjoyable to read, but he absolutely has a very dark side to his personality.

Aye, the same bard who was blackmailing him and was threatening to sell his secret to his father?

Let us assume that he gave the blackmailer whatever he wanted. When the blackmailer sees that it worked, wont he ask for a larger favour or more money next time, and repeat said process infinitely?

If Tyrion declined the marriage, Sansa would have wed Lancel. The marriage would have been private and not publicly embarrassing like the wedding Tyrion and Sansa had. There would have been no bedding. No consummation. Sansa wouldn't even have to be around Lancel except to visit his sickbed from time to time.

This highlights another issue: Tyrion creates all sorts of problems for himself

Tyrion's wedding was private by Westerosi standards. There is no evidence in the books to suggest that a marriage with Lancel would be more or less public than it was with Tyrion. If you recall, there was no bedding when Tyrion wed Sansa either.

[Dr. Pepper]

But see, this thread is not about whether Tyrion deserves a gold, or silver, medal. This thread is about whether Tyrion is, as the OP put it, "evil to the core". And his behavior simply isn't proper for someone supposedly "evil to the core".

No, the thread is about one person deciding to use the forum as a status update tool in order to make a singular statement about a character. We've all simply decided to use the thread as something more relevant to the forum.

[RoamingRonin]

Aye, the same bard who was blackmailing him and was threatening to sell his secret to his father?

Let us assume that he gave the blackmailer whatever he wanted. When the blackmailer sees that it worked, wont he ask for a larger favour or more money next time, and repeat said process infinitely?

He wouldn't have had to kill the Bard if he listened to Tywin in the first place. He brought Shae to court for no good reason at all and look what happened. He creates his own problems and acts like the world is against him.

Tyrion's wedding was private by Westerosi standards. There is no evidence in the books to suggest that a marriage with Lancel would be more or less public than it was with Tyrion. If you recall, there was no bedding when Tyrion wed Sansa either.

No, it wasn't private. It was public and embarrassing. I don't get the "Westerosi standards". The bedding didn't happen because Tyrion lashed out at Joffrey and Tyrion still attempted to sleep with her. You ignore the text I just quoted above: Sansa and Lancel would have wed in his sickroom because he was bedridden.

[Ser Eric]

1. There's no gold medal for not raping someone. There's not even a silver medal for not raping someone due to realizing that the other person cannot and will not be attracted to them.

2. It does matter when he gives her a 'choice'. He tried to offer this 'choice' immediately before heading into the sept. He could have brought her the choice before he decided he wanted Winterfell enough to not allow her a choice, or he could have even come to her with the choice sometime between when he decided for himself and when she was being dragged to the sept at knife point. Instead, he gives her a 'choice' at the precise moment there is no choice to be made. She's going to marry who they want, when they want, regardless of what she has to say about it.

3. There's not really a gold star given for being respectful to someone, especially if that someone is a hostage and the way she's treated directly effects the way one's brother is treated as a hostage.

No one is claiming that it's a crime that Tyrion wanted Winterfell. It's not even a crime that he desires Sansa. His thoughts aren't the issue here.

ETA: re Lancel, the relevant chapters are in AFFC where it's discovered that he hasn't bed his wife and has expressed complete disinterest in what she chooses to do.

1. Nonsense. For a start, I am not even sure it would have qualified as rape. In the modern world, it's a definite rape but marital rape is much more of a grey area in Westeros. And there's the fact that Tyrion cannot read Sansa's mind and Sansa never says I don't want to. But that's a minefield so let's ignore that. Tyrion gets a gold medal for not doing something that was expected of him. It was his 'right' to have sex with Sansa on his wedding. Tyrion gets points for not having sex despite Tywin telling him to do so. So, you are utterly wrong. Tyrion gets points for doing the right thing and he came out looking very good from that incident.

2. No, it doesn't matter. Tyrion wants Sansa and he wants Winterfell but he still offered her a way out. Good going by the imp.

3. What is your obsession with assigning points? Tyrion treats Sansa well. No one said anything more. You sound like you desperately want to paint Tyrion in the worst possible and point while refusing to give credit where it's due.

I am not even a Tyrion fan anymore btw.

[BearQueen87]

He wouldn't have had to kill the Bard if he listened to Tywin in the first place. He brought Shae to court for no good reason at all and look what happened. He creates his own problems and acts like the world is against him.

I've wondered before if Tyrion brought Shae to court more because of Tywin's "you will not bring the whore to court" rather than Shae herself. He grew to love Shae, but this was very early stage.

I agree Tyrion creates a lot of his own problems. He remarks, during his trial I believe, that his tongue will get him killed one day. He makes japes and remarks that land him in deeper water.

And speaking of Symon the Bard: he didn't just order him killed. Bronn gave him to a Flea Bottom establishment with a bowl-of-brown with "all sorts of meat in it." The famous Singer Stew.

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

Tyrion's not evil. He definitely does have his good points.
I agree that points shouldn't be awarded for not raping somone (which is why no one's suggesting we give Tyrion points for not raping every serving girl he's ever met :P ) However, the reason that him choosing not to consumate his marriage with Sansa is comendable (IMHO, even if other's don't think so) is because, in Westeros, that would be the thing to do. I'm fairly certain that the laws in Westeros are that a husband can't rape his wife, so no one would've judged Tyrion for bedding Sansa. Indeed, he even becomes a bit of a joke because he doesn't. Now, in modern times, we know that it is of course possible for someone to rape their spouse, so I appreciate that it's easy for us to simply say that Tyrion does what any acceptable human would do. However, for the place he lives, Tyrion actually doesn't do the normal thing. He goes against what his society thinks and instead acts in the best interest of Sansa. Despite the fact that, had he had his way with her, very few (if any) in world characters would have thought it bad, and he is actually mocked for not bedding her. He doesn't gain from not doing this. It is, IMO, one of the closest things to a selfless act that Tyrion performs.
He also does give Bran the saddle, and protects Sansa from Joffrey even if it is to protect Jaime - hey, he's still protecting someone right?
Of course after presenting a few of the good things I think Tyrion's done, I'll add that, while I am a fan of Tyrion, I do not think he is a 'good' person by any stretch of the imagination. I think he's very self-serving, and very bitter, but that he's telling the truth about having a soft spot for "cripples, bastards and broken things." He can be quite ruthless and certainly does cause trouble for himself, but in the beginning, he's a lighter gray than most.
After killing Shae and Tywin though, Tyrion gets a lot darker - not evil, I don't think, but a lot of his bitterness starts to bubble to the surface and consume him. I like Tyrion, but I wouldn't have liked him had we been introduced to his point of view in AFFC. I don't think that in Westeros you can technically rape whores, but I agree that there's no excuse for how Tyrion treats the whore and the bedwarmer in Essos. Still - I wouldn't call him evil.... yet. (hopefully ever :) )

eta: I mean ADWD of course! silly me... Tyrion's not even in AFFC!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I agree Tyrion creates a lot of his own problems. He remarks, during his trial I believe, that his tongue will get him killed one day. He makes japes and remarks that land him in deeper water.

And after all he'd been through, he hasn't learned yet his lesson, as he realised when he was expecting Duck or Griff to rescue him until he heard they were on their way back to Westeros, all due to his tongue and bad decisions.

[willofDorne]

No, the thread is about one person deciding to use the forum as a status update tool in order to make a singular statement about a character. We've all simply decided to use the thread as something more relevant to the forum.

I tried to leave it open because it always seems I get goaded into making all the bad points about Tyrion. And then everyone says I'm terrible because he's GRRM's favorite character.

ARE THERE NO TRUE KNIGHTS AMONG YOU?

Interesting, I just realized, when the true knight fought for Tyrion Lannister, he lost, but when the false knight fought for him, he won.

[BearQueen87]

I tried to leave it open because it always seems I get goaded into making all the bad points about Tyrion. And then everyone says I'm terrible because he's GRRM's favorite character.

ARE THERE NO TRUE KNIGHTS AMONG YOU?

Interesting, I just realized, when the true knight fought for Tyrion Lannister, he lost, but when the false knight fought for him, he won.

Bronn was not a knight at the fight in the Vale. He only became Ser Bronn after Blackwater. Before then, he was a sellsword.

[Howlin' Howland]

Aye, the same bard who was blackmailing him and was threatening to sell his secret to his father?

Let us assume that he gave the blackmailer whatever he wanted. When the blackmailer sees that it worked, wont he ask for a larger favour or more money next time, and repeat said process infinitely?

Or he could have moved Shae and her guards into a house in the country, or sent her on a ship to Essos. Then if Symon told Tywin or Cersei about her Tyrion could just claim he was lying. He didn't kill the bard to protect Shae or himself, he did it so that he could keep her in KL.