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Possibility GRRM is finishing final 2 books at same time?


House Holter

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And the show is? LOL. How many minutes were spent on random brothel scenes and other filler like this?

That has already been measured by others, and the amount of time of these types of scenes is minimal compared to the overall running time of the series.

Since we are talking brothels.... Lets talk Littlefinger.

Littlefinger is a very important character in the books by the end of A Storm of Swords. Yet he is barely in the books. A show can't operate like that. If Littlefinger is important to the story, he needs more screen time to set up his character. That is where the brothel scenes come in. They shape the character of Littlefinger and show is willingness to use people as pawns to increase his position in the world.

The show does a better job with a character like Littlefinger. He is fully developed on the show. He is a shell of a character in the books when he is supposed to be so important...

And lets add one more name to the mix.... Robb Stark. He is better i the show then he is in the books. When he dies at the Red Wedding, it is even more powerful in the show because we have spent so much more time with that character. in the books, he is a non-POV character.

Sure the books do some things better. The show does so much more with the characters.

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And you are stating a fatal flaw of book readers. Not just for this book series, but for all books in general. And that flaw is..... If it didn't happen like it did in the books, it isn't as good in their minds. I swear, a book can have the worst plot points, and people will justify it by saying: "Well, it was in the books". However, when a movie or television show deviates from the book in the better way, there is always a portion of the book readers who complain because they did not stay "true" to the story.

Arya & Tywin wasn't in the books. It was superior to Arya & Roose. Hound & Brienne was not in the books and that was an epic fight on the television show.

Fair point, though as it happens I came to the books through the show, so I guess I am less likely to be rabidly protective of the books than someone who was there way before the show (as I am/was with The Hobbit & LOTR, for instance).

Yet, I stick with my opinion that overall the books are superior, mainly due to the level of detail and complexity they have comapred to the show. I'm not saying that the show hasn't done some things that perhaps would have been good in the book, but often this is at the expense of other strands of the plot which add up to (in my opinion) a better experience overall.

I totally get what you are saying and I think a lot of it often comes down to what you experienced first (my discovery of show/books was quite close together so perhaps that's why it didn't happen this way). For instance, cover versions - whilst I do really like Green Day and enjoy their version, I would never say their cover of I Fought the Law is better than the Clash's version, which I heard first. Likewise, I'm sure there are lots of people who feel the same way, preferring Bobby Fuller Four or The Cricket's version for the same reason.

Trying to be as objective as possible, I do think ASoIaF is better than GoT, merely because - for me - the level of detail/complexity outweighs the "tightness" of the show.

I think people will always have more success adapting a smaller piece into a larger one rather than the other way around (Blade Runne, Shawshank Redemption) as, essentially, I think people will always respond better to added details that compliment the source, rather than having details removed to its detriment.

Edit: I'll make sure it's a really comfy cave.

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Fair point, though as it happens I came to the books through the show, so I guess I am less likely to be rabidly protective of the books than someone who was there way before the show (as I am/was with The Hobbit & LOTR, for instance).

Yet, I stick with my opinion that overall the books are superior, mainly due to the level of detail and complexity they have comapred to the show. I'm not saying that the show hasn't done some things that perhaps would have been good in the book, but often this is at the expense of other strands of the plot which add up to (in my opinion) a better experience overall.

I totally get what you are saying and I think a lot of it often comes down to what you experienced first (my discovery of show/books was quite close together so perhaps that's why it didn't happen this way). For instance, cover versions - whilst I do really like Green Day and enjoy their version, I would never say their cover of I Fought the Law is better than the Clash's version, which I heard first. Likewise, I'm sure there are lots of people who feel the same way, preferring Bobby Fuller Four or The Cricket's version for the same reason.

Trying to be as objective as possible, I do think ASoIaF is better than GoT, merely because - for me - the level of detail/complexity outweighs the "tightness" of the show.

I think people will always have more success adapting a smaller piece into a larger one rather than the other way around (Blade Runne, Shawshank Redemption) as, essentially, I think people will always respond better to added details that compliment the source, rather than having details removed to its detriment.

Edit: I'll make sure it's a really comfy cave.

Personally, I find that detail is often conflated as an "asset" when it could be either asset or detriment. Some details are great and work to the story's advantage. Others bog the story down and add unnecessary bloat. ASoIaF has both, but I think we see much more of the latter kind in the last two books. Details should be there to enhance the plot...but in the case of AFFC and ADWD, they slow the story down to a crawl in some places. I think that is why the show will really start to shine next year, and why it worked so well this year...because it can cut out a lot of the unnecessary stuff and focus on the actual plot.

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Fair point, though as it happens I came to the books through the show, so I guess I am less likely to be rabidly protective of the books than someone who was there way before the show (as I am/was with The Hobbit & LOTR, for instance).

Yet, I stick with my opinion that overall the books are superior, mainly due to the level of detail and complexity they have comapred to the show. I'm not saying that the show hasn't done some things that perhaps would have been good in the book, but often this is at the expense of other strands of the plot which add up to (in my opinion) a better experience overall.

I totally get what you are saying and I think a lot of it often comes down to what you experienced first (my discovery of show/books was quite close together so perhaps that's why it didn't happen this way). For instance, cover versions - whilst I do really like Green Day and enjoy their version, I would never say their cover of I Fought the Law is better than the Clash's version, which I heard first. Likewise, I'm sure there are lots of people who feel the same way, preferring Bobby Fuller Four or The Cricket's version for the same reason.

Trying to be as objective as possible, I do think ASoIaF is better than GoT, merely because - for me - the level of detail/complexity outweighs the "tightness" of the show.

I think people will always have more success adapting a smaller piece into a larger one rather than the other way around (Blade Runne, Shawshank Redemption) as, essentially, I think people will always respond better to added details that compliment the source, rather than having details removed to its detriment.

Edit: I'll make sure it's a really comfy cave.

on balance, I really dont think you can ask for a better adaptation than the one that we're getting. People forget that there are just things that work in a book that don't translate to a tv show. Look at Bran's entire arc beyond the Wall, it's basically just one long atmospheric peace setting up how barren and abandoned it is up there with all the wildlings gone. That takes two whole chapters in ADWD, yet in a tv show that takes about 30 seconds if you have a decent set design. The show isnt perfect by any means, I had a few issues with some dialogue this year (no "Only Cat", no "wherever whores go", etc), but for the most part the changes they've made have been appropriate and in many instances improved on what was already great about the novels.
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The books are not "tight". The last two books are full of tons of fluff that the show will get rid of. Right now there are 3 great books and 2 bad ones. That is only 60%..... She show is 4 for 4 in seasons so far. And the show made the attack on the wall epic..... Far better then the books. They even devoted more then an episodes to the battle of the wall....

They're tight, the 'fluff' as you call it has a purpose, even if you don't get it. In my opinion there are three very good books and two great books. And I disagree that the show is four for four. It's good, but it's full of holes and it certainly doesn't capture the epic scale I imagined when reading the books. But that's just my opinion. I totally understand a lot of people prefer the show, I got no problem with that. My objection was to the claim that the show is far superior. I just can't find any ground to agree with that statement be it character, plot, scale, intrigue, whatever.

Many people prefer the show to the books. Many people like the show just as much as the books. Many people only started reading the show because of the books. Many people have tried to read the books and didn't like them, but enjoy the show. Many people haven't read the books and never will read the books but watch the show every week.

Guess what? They all have the right to feel that way about the show, just as much as you have the right to like the books over the show. Stop acting like people are idiots simply because they have different preferences than you.

I agree with everything you say in the first half. I also agree people have the right to like or dislike the books or show to whatever degree they want. But I'm not acting like people are idiots, I'm acting like people are smart, which I believe to be true of the majority of posters on these boards. I'm challenging the statement that the show is far superior to the books. Guess what? That's what happens on these boards, people express an opinion and people with different opinions then enter into a debate. I'm not tilting the poster, I'm tilting at the statement.

The statement is that the show is far superior to the books. I disagree. I'm not saying the poster has to change his mind, they're entitled to their opinion, I'm just saying I disagree. I think the plotlines are simplified, some of the characters are written a bit thin, there are scenes that make little sense, the world building is not as rich, and the scale is not as grand. I put it down partly to the fact that it's hard to translate inner monologue to the screen and more so that the show is constrained by budget and time. I wish it wasn't, but it is. Regardless, these are the reasons I disagree with the statement.

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They're tight, the 'fluff' as you call it has a purpose, even if you don't get it. In my opinion there are three very good books and two great books. And I disagree that the show is four for four. It's good, but it's full of holes and it certainly doesn't capture the epic scale I imagined when reading the books. But that's just my opinion. I totally understand a lot of people prefer the show, I got no problem with that. My objection was to the claim that the show is far superior. I just can't find any ground to agree with that statement be it character, plot, scale, intrigue, whatever.

I agree with everything you say in the first half. I also agree people have the right to like or dislike the books or show to whatever degree they want. But I'm not acting like people are idiots, I'm acting like people are smart, which I believe to be true of the majority of posters on these boards. I'm challenging the statement that the show is far superior to the books. Guess what? That's what happens on these boards, people express an opinion and people with different opinions then enter into a debate. I'm not tilting the poster, I'm tilting at the statement.

The statement is that the show is far superior to the books. I disagree. I'm not saying the poster has to change his mind, they're entitled to their opinion, I'm just saying I disagree. I think the plotlines are simplified, some of the characters are written a bit thin, there are scenes that make little sense, the world building is not as rich, and the scale is not as grand. I put it down partly to the fact that it's hard to translate inner monologue to the screen and more so that the show is constrained by budget and time. I wish it wasn't, but it is. Regardless, these are the reasons I disagree with the statement.

hear hear.

also the statement that 'The show does so much more with the characters.' is quite simply not true. The books go into far more detail about the characters and their motivations, their experience and psychology. they have more detailed storylines and more extensive travels, more dilemmas and relationships, are more multi-faceted in almost every way.

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I very much doubt the show will slow down for him to finish... If anything the books not being out when it airs will probably increase the ratings, despite what people say on these forums. All of my book-reading friends are going to watch the show regardless, and I'm sure there's a lot more people that feel the same.



As for both books coming out at the same time, I think it's highly unlikely. Even when we had two books running concurrently, they weren't released at the same time, so we aren't going to get it with books that (assumedly) have different timelines.


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hear hear.

also the statement that 'The show does so much more with the characters.' is quite simply not true. The books go into far more detail about the characters and their motivations, their experience and psychology. they have more detailed storylines and more extensive travels, more dilemmas and relationships, are more multi-faceted in almost every way.

it depends on what character you're talking about. Yeah they've taken some of the moral complexity out of Tyrion, but at the same time I love the way they've let Sam's character grow. It never made sense with all he went through in ASOS that he would still be such a sniveling little shit. Instead D & D have let him blossom a bit, in a believable way.
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Personally, I find that detail is often conflated as an "asset" when it could be either asset or detriment. Some details are great and work to the story's advantage. Others bog the story down and add unnecessary bloat. ASoIaF has both, but I think we see much more of the latter kind in the last two books. Details should be there to enhance the plot...but in the case of AFFC and ADWD, they slow the story down to a crawl in some places. I think that is why the show will really start to shine next year, and why it worked so well this year...because it can cut out a lot of the unnecessary stuff and focus on the actual plot.

Barring a couple of plots it did not really work well this year. The hype is carrying the show but in truth it's been in continual decline since season 1. They cut out what you call unnecessary stuff only to include unnecessary stuff of their own. With no Charles Dance or the guy who played Sandor last season the show is only going to get worse and quite frankly there are already signs that it's becoming a badly written fan-fiction.

The show is not a patch on the books. It's not even close.

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Barring a couple of plots it did not really work well this year. The hype is carrying the show but in truth it's been in continual decline since season 1. They cut out what you call unnecessary stuff only to include unnecessary stuff of their own. With no Charles Dance or the guy who played Sandor last season the show is only going to get worse and quite frankly there are already signs that it's becoming a badly written fan-fiction.

The show is not a patch on the books. It's not even close.

I laugh at opinions like this.

The show has gotten better every season.

Badly written fan-fiction? Seriously? People with this viewpoint come across like book snobs.

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snip

Badly written fan-fiction? Seriously? People with this viewpoint come across like book snobs.

Especially as GRRM writes an episode every season....

ETA: Also worth noting he wrote the battle at Blackwater Bay episode, and made a lot of changes from the book.

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Barring a couple of plots it did not really work well this year. The hype is carrying the show but in truth it's been in continual decline since season 1. They cut out what you call unnecessary stuff only to include unnecessary stuff of their own. With no Charles Dance or the guy who played Sandor last season the show is only going to get worse and quite frankly there are already signs that it's becoming a badly written fan-fiction.

The show is not a patch on the books. It's not even close.

Of course, that's your opinion. My opinion differs greatly, as I found this to be the best season of the show yet and find myself enjoying the show more than I enjoyed the books...especially as it gets into the territory of AFFC and ADWD, which were subpar in my opinion. I don't like everything in the show, but then again, I don't like everything in the books, either. But I think the show does some things better than the books, and I can see how many people would enjoy it more than the books.

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Especially as GRRM writes an episode every season....

ETA: Also worth noting he wrote the battle at Blackwater Bay episode, and made a lot of changes from the book.

To be fair, when GRRM writes for the show he writes under the constraints of D&D's overall script and has to submit to them for final approval, not to mention other limiting production factors like budget. It is well known that this is one of the reasons he left t.v. in the first place and decided to tell this amazing story he's created in the form of books, where the only limits are his imagination and that of his readers.

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To be fair, when GRRM writes for the show he writes under the constraints of D&D's overall script and has to submit to them for final approval, not to mention other limiting production factors like budget. It is well known that this is one of the reasons he left t.v. in the first place and decided to tell this amazing story he's created in the form of books, where the only limits are his imagination and that of his readers.

Undoubtedly, but he still changed things that would have nothing to do with budget constraints, such as Stannis leading the battle from the front.

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Undoubtedly, but he still changed things that would have nothing to do with budget constraints, such as Stannis leading the battle from the front.

How GRRM imagined Stannis' character and the Blackwater can be read in the books. I don't know why they put Stannis leading the assault in the show but who's to say that wasn't D&D's decision? Did GRRM explain the decision in an interview? I honestly can't recall.

But anyway, you prefer the show, I prefer the books, it's all good. I've given my reasons why I think the books are better. I know a lot of people prefer the show and some claim the show is superior, though I haven't seen anyone back that claim up with anything substantial. I don't consider being called a book snob a substantial argument. I'm happy to debate this on the appropriate thread but I'm not going off topic anymore on this one.

The optimist in me hopes it's TWoW - winter 2015, ADoS - spring 2017. That way we'll all be happy.

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How GRRM imagined Stannis' character and the Blackwater can be read in the books. I don't know why they put Stannis leading the assault in the show but who's to say that wasn't D&D's decision? Did GRRM explain the decision in an interview? I honestly can't recall.

But anyway, you prefer the show, I prefer the books, it's all good. I've given my reasons why I think the books are better. I know a lot of people prefer the show and some claim the show is superior, though I haven't seen anyone back that claim up with anything substantial. I don't consider being called a book snob a substantial argument. I'm happy to debate this on the appropriate thread but I'm not going off topic anymore on this one.

The optimist in me hopes it's TWoW - winter 2015, ADoS - spring 2017. That way we'll all be happy.

Lol I don't prefer the show at all, I was just making the point that isn't 'fan fiction' as somebody called it :)

But yeah, back on topic.

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