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Catelyn's venomous impact on Blackfish


Modelex

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A lot of this makes the case that she's a rather extraordinary mother compared to most others in the story.

I think most people who had to go through what Catelyn endured would have broken down far sooner.

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I'd be very surprised if Robb made his choice without telling or consulting Brynden, even if it was done off-page.

The direwolf is still flying over Riverrun when Jaime arrives. Robb's dead, Jeyne isn't knocked up, Bran, Rickon and Arya are presumed dead and Sansa is Lady Lannister. So who's left?

That is an interesting way to look at it. I'd never given the direwolf flag much thought beyond.............The Black Fish being a stubborn son of a bitch and using it as his way to say F U to everyone out there, LOL. It serves that purpose, and as you say, the purpose of standing firm for Robb's heir.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I wasn't endorsing the views being expressed.

Releasing Jaime may or may not have been ill-judged. It certainly wasn't selfish. When Catelyn was placed under arrest, she thought she might be hanged for what she had done. She accepted the risk of execution, in order to try and save her daughters.

How were her actions not selfish? If she' hadn't loosed Jamie Tywin would never have dreamed of turning to Walder.

He wouldn't want something to happen to Robb for fear of what the Tullys or Northern allies would do to Jamie. Holding Jamie was Robb's best insurance policy against Tywin and any scheme he might have harbored against Stark.

Once Jamie was free the Lannisters could do as they please and pull out all the dirty tricks they want, Jamie and all other lions were ransomed right before the Red wedding. If Robb had been smarter he would have been wary of Tywin and not being upset about the death of his nephews at Karstarks hands. When he still agreed to trades I would have been double worried when I went to the twins.

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How were her actions not selfish? If she' hadn't loosed Jamie Tywin would never have dreamed of turning to Walder.

He wouldn't want something to happen to Robb for fear of what the Tullys or Northern allies would do to Jamie. Holding Jamie was Robb's best insurance policy against Tywin and any scheme he might have harbored against Stark.

Once Jamie was free the Lannisters could do as they please and pull out all the dirty tricks they want, Jamie and all other lions were ransomed right before the Red wedding. If Robb had been smarter he would have been wary of Tywin and not being upset about the death of his nephews at Karstarks hands. When he still agreed to trades I would have been double worried when I went to the twins.

Tywin thought Jaime as good as dead, Tyrion comments on it.

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Tywin thought Jaime as good as dead, Tyrion comments on it.

And it's strongly implied that Tywin was already negotiating the Red Wedding at the start of ASoS, well before he could have known of Jaime's release/escape.

The fact is that hostages don't work on Tywin. He carries on with the assumption that the hostages are, as Ygrain says, as good as dead and doesn't allow it to affect his policies. Jaime as a prisoner meant the loss of a battle commander for Tywin, and... that's about it. Not entirely insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but pretty insignificant. Jaime as a hostage did exactly nothing to prevent Tywin from prosecuting the war however he felt like.

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I don't disagree.



However but comma, he thought the Jamie was as good as dead, why contunie to think of him as his heir. He had the swords made while Jamie was still in chains. It's almost as if he knew that he would be getting Jamie back. That he didn't think that anything would happen to Jamie and he was taken out in one of the first real big battles in the books. So if Jamie was as good as dead, why the sword, why the wedding or even contact Walder if his son was as good as dead. Robb Stark wasn't the one that was giving Tywin restless nights it was Stannis the man that never says quit.


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Robb may not have been giving Tywin restless nights but the fact remained that Robb was never defeated in battle and kicked some Lannister asses; he was a threat, and that threat was effectively eliminated in the field where Tywin didn't have to fear any defeat or losses.



ETA: Besides, after the RW, the Freys had Edmure (and had planned to keep Cat, as well). There is no way Blackfish would do anything to Jaime in this situation.


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If Robb was not giving Tywin restless nights it is likely because he could work out that Robb needed to abandon his war in the south in order to deal with the Ironborn . The enemy that could only win by taking the throne in KL was certainly a greater that than the enemy for whom killing Lannisters was a lesser priority.

The Blackish was aware that Cat distrusted he husbands bastard but I doubt he ever thought of Jon enough to form an opinion of him. It seems more likely Jaime poisoned the Blackfish on Jon when he tried the hard sell.

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Robb may not have been giving Tywin restless nights but the fact remained that Robb was never defeated in battle and kicked some Lannister asses; he was a threat, and that threat was effectively eliminated in the field where Tywin didn't have to fear any defeat or losses.

ETA: Besides, after the RW, the Freys had Edmure (and had planned to keep Cat, as well). There is no way Blackfish would do anything to Jaime in this situation.

You sure about that. The Blackfish didn't seem to concerned by the rope around Edmure's neck during the siege of Riverrun.

IF there is one thing that the Blackfish never lacked for was resolve if he heard that his sister and nephew his king was killed at the hands of Frey and Lannisters, and he still had Jamie prisoner what do you really think he would have done?

Maybe send them a hand, a sword hand or a head. I don't think that Jamie would have been leaving Riverrun whole and hardy after the RW if BF still had him. If he was allowed to leave at all. I could see him sending Tywin Jamie's head maybe with a piece of bread and salt between the teeth.

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You sure about that. The Blackfish didn't seem to concerned by the rope around Edmure's neck during the siege of Riverrun.

IF there is one thing that the Blackfish never lacked for was resolve if he heard that his sister and nephew his king was killed at the hands of Frey and Lannisters, and he still had Jamie prisoner what do you really think he would have done?

Maybe send them a hand, a sword hand or a head. I don't think that Jamie would have been leaving Riverrun whole and hardy after the RW if BF still had him. If he was allowed to leave at all. I could see him sending Tywin Jamie's head maybe with a piece of bread and salt between the teeth.

Because Ryman lacked the balls to go ahead with the threat. Note how the situation changes when Kingslayer enters the scene. Now, had Tywin lived and dealt with Riverrun instead of the incompetent Freys, do you think that Blackfish would be so unphased?

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Everyone knows that Cat is the main villain of the series. Just look at everything she's done:

She poisoned Jon Arryn and blamed it on the Lannisters.

She ganged raped a crofter's daughter with Tully bannermen and paid the girl a silver for each soldier the girl took.

While hunting along the Weeping Water, she hanged the local miller and raped his new bride--claiming it was her right as the Leech Lady of Winterfell.

She sent Falyse Stokeworth down to Qyburn's dungeon to die. This was after Cat gang raped her sister Lollys during the riot at King's Landing.

Catelyn is patient zero for both Greyscale and the Pale Mare.

She sold her little sister Lysa to a Dothraki horselord. Lysa then "woke the silver trout," so Cat shoved her out the Moon Door.

She rearmed the Faith Militant and refused to repay the Iron Bank.

She made Vargo Hoat eat his own limbs. This was after she bit off his ear and lied to him about sapphires.

Catelyn once opened her mouth and breathed fire down on Quentyn Martell. Oh.

She cut off Myrcella Baratheon's ear and then claimed to be "of the night."

While skinchanging at Riverrun, she had sex with another trout and enjoyed it.

She birthed the shadow demon that killed Renly, and then blamed Brienne for his death. Then she ate Brienne's face.

Cat is also the perfumed seneschal, the Storm God, and the Great Other.

She drove a sword through her son Robb's heart at Edmure's wedding.

She and Edmure then proceeded to copulate next to Robb's corpse while Cat was on her period.

She poisoned the honeyed locusts and regularly feasts on unborn puppies on sticks.

She beat Ned to death to maintain her honor after Euron defiled him.

She defecated on Oznak zo Pahl's corpse in front of the walls of Meereen. Then she wiped herself on his cloak.

She molested the Damphair when he was a child. Stoneheart has come again.

She shoved that stick up Arya's bunghole and fucked her bloody.

She chopped off Theon's manhood and fed it to the goats.

...the she smashed his fucking head in. Like this.

She fucks her sons, births more sons, and then fucks the new sons.

She has sacrificed dozens of infants named Sansa and Arya to the Others.

She's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moonboy for all I know.

I hear she goes by the nickname "Gatehouse Catelyn."

...But even worse than all that: she was emotionally cold toward her husband's by-blow when Bran was in a coma. THE HORROR!!!!!! (Never mind the fact that it was SHE who pushed Bran out of the window in the first place).

...Oh, and she's also the Harpy.

I award you 1 internet...

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Because Ryman lacked the balls to go ahead with the threat. Note how the situation changes when Kingslayer enters the scene. Now, had Tywin lived and dealt with Riverrun instead of the incompetent Freys, do you think that Blackfish would be so unphased?

No, yet he also, knows what type of man Jamie Lannister was as well. He still wasn't phased. Didn't at one point during their talk tell him to go ahead kill him, his nephew was marked for death no matter what he did. He knew about Lannister and his vows to Cat, that's part of the test. IF he kills Edmure he's taken arms against Tully and anything that his niece does to him when she gets her hands on him is on him. If he turns him over to Casterly Rock as a hostage then he's not taken up arms against Tully and maybe he can be of use.

Then look at Edmure and Blackfish they used the fact that Jamie didn't kill Edmure against he. They now have the perfect inside man inside of Casterly Rock along with Jeyne Westerling to help take down the West from the inside out. That may have more to do with plot than with the Blackfish and the type of man he is. I am given pause by the whole conversation and other aspects of what's going on in the Trident.

Mallister is still pinned up in Seaguard, there's a frey wedding in the offering, BWB is inside of Riverrun(the part that's sworn to Cat), Edmure is on his way to Casterly Rock, Braken/Blackwood seem to be working together with that feigned siege of Blackwood's lands. That's just part of it, then there's the whores and their reactions, lady stone heart has the crown that was on the queen of whore's head when Jamie sent him away. Braken when Jamie comes on him is parataking of some of other whore. Now if I was a bettering woman I would say that they are being used to relay information. They might be in on the plot to get the BWB,Blackfish, Trident lords, and Robb's remaining foot inside of the West.

Not to mention that between Cat and Danye's branches of the Brotherhood they are siphoning off men from the west. By acting as a diversion they are keeping the western men chasing their tails. Making them easy picking for the two forces. So if a portion of Western forces are far from home when the destruction of the West to help or dead. Well that's just one less man to have to fight to gain control of the West for the Trident/Northern coalition.

Just food for thought.

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Mallister is still pinned up in Seaguard, there's a frey wedding in the offering, BWB is inside of Riverrun(the part that's sworn to Cat), Edmure is on his way to Casterly Rock, Braken/Blackwood seem to be working together with that feigned siege of Blackwood's lands. That's just part of it, then there's the whores and their reactions, lady stone heart has the crown that was on the queen of whore's head when Jamie sent him away. Braken when Jamie comes on him is parataking of some of other whore. Now if I was a bettering woman I would say that they are being used to relay information. They might be in on the plot to get the BWB,Blackfish, Trident lords, and Robb's remaining foot inside of the West.

Some interesting thoughts. What makes you think the siege of Raventree was feigned? The whores working with the BwB is an interesting idea - similar to Mance's washerwomen in WF, men wouldn't suspect women of working against them. Does Robb have any remaining foot? I know some of them must surely have escaped the RW but would it be a sizeable number and would they not just be broken men? Either way, I don't think they have enough men to try anything in the west. Their main priority surely has to be getting Riverrun and Edmure back and killing Freys and Lannisters.

On topic, I think Catelyn's attitude to Jon is perfectly understandable. He's the reminder of Ned's betrayal and he also poses a threat to her children's claims to WF, or even of he doesn't, any sons of his could. It blinds her. She makes no attempt to get to know Jon, so how can she possibly know what he's really like? The Blackfish has never met Jon, so he can't judge for himself. He's likely to believe Catelyn over Robb because Catelyn was right about Theon. Also, bastards have a bad reputation and I don't think the Blackfish would be entirely immune to this prejudice.

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Some interesting thoughts. What makes you think the siege of Raventree was feigned? The whores working with the BwB is an interesting idea - similar to Mance's washerwomen in WF, men wouldn't suspect women of working against them. Does Robb have any remaining foot? I know some of them must surely have escaped the RW but would it be a sizeable number and would they not just be broken men? Either way, I don't think they have enough men to try anything in the west. Their main priority surely has to be getting Riverrun and Edmure back and killing Freys and Lannisters.

On topic, I think Catelyn's attitude to Jon is perfectly understandable. He's the reminder of Ned's betrayal and he also poses a threat to her children's claims to WF, or even of he doesn't, any sons of his could. It blinds her. She makes no attempt to get to know Jon, so how can she possibly know what he's really like? The Blackfish has never met Jon, so he can't judge for himself. He's likely to believe Catelyn over Robb because Catelyn was right about Theon. Also, bastards have a bad reputation and I don't think the Blackfish would be entirely immune to this prejudice.

Didn't Robb leave a garrison of Northerns at the Crag? Also, what happened to those two castles that Robb took in the West did he surrender them back to the Lannister's before the RW or are they still in Northern Hands. Don't forget that the BWB is split, possibly working at cross agendas or seemingly cross purposes. Along with there are other reminates of Robb's foot floating around the Trident regions, along with there were alot of Trident bannerman missing from the siege of Riverrun. Mallister is pinned up in Seaguard, and Bracken and Blackwood were having their own feigned siege. To keep the Lannister forces in the Trident as they set up their positions. They are using the small folk via the brotherhood and whores as a human raven information system. Notice the queen of whores was with Frey when he was hung not a days ride from the Twins. Then again Bracken is fucking another whore when Jamie comes upon him she even takes the time to introduce herself, while the Queen of whores also makes sure to introduce herself to Jamie. Hint Hint almost like the author is telling use that all whore are working for her.

Also, by the BWB feigning appearances here and there, melting into the neck, the making a ring of watchers around the siege lines of Riverrun. The news at Darry of reports of seeing different parties of bandits, Wheelhouse Ami telling Jamie about her husband and his death, having the captain of the gold cloaks but also, an heir to Crankhal pledging to come back to Darry to hunt down the bandits. The attack on Saltpan was so savage that the crown has no choice but to hunt down the hound and bring his head to the Capital. What better way then to keep the Lannisters and it's western forces spinning its tail, while they slip in the West and cut them off from returning.

Lady Stoneheart is making the Trident unstable for the West, and forcing their hand to stay and deal with the threats. While the Trident lords, with the Help of Dayne's part of the brotherhood, is gathering the sweepings of the Tridents, rousting the remaining parts of the north that still is scattered across the trident.

That's why the Blackfish set up the siege of Riverrun. To bring the all of the Western's remain forces and allies to one place. Freys cut off from help by the Tumblestone, while the Western forces/Trident allies sit in the middle of the rivers while on the other side sat Jamie's arms and whatever other western forces. All the Blackfish was doing was holding, typical of his personality, being stubborn and defiant. Yet he told Jamie to his face that he was going to continue his nephew's war and the direwolf of house stark was still seen at Riverrun and at the Blackwood siege! Yet who are they fighting for? Sansa's a lannister and married to the Imp disappeared and attained for the murder of the king! That's high treason and regicide boys and girls. Bran and Rickon/Arya are all believed to be dead, so who's left? Jon Snow that's who and how happens to know about a certain will? Edmure Tully, and Mallister. Simple matter of sending a raven(human or winged) before the Freys set up the siege. Mallister only bent the knee because he wanted his heir back and didn't want to see him hanged. That doesn't stop him for still once they left(frey) for them to coordinate with the various lords of the Trident and those that survived the Red Wedding/escaped to work with the Brotherhood (they also know ways that honest men like lords don't know poacher roads and such.) Who didn't die at Duskendale, Maidenpoole, the Battle of Green forks.

The siege was a stall tactic. Drawing the eye of the crown and it's armies to the Trident, so that they can pick them off but also so they could gather their forces and train those that needed(the dregs of the Trident). Edmure Tully is headed to Casterly Rock. Why on gods green earth would you try and free him. That's the best and perfect place for him. He has to pass by the Crag or they are going to have to split their forces as the Golden Tooth as the Crag sits on the Tumblestone.

If I was the trident and I was going for the element of suprise I would never attack when I know they are going to be on guard for it. I would wait let them get to the West and then close the Golden Tooth gainst them and from help being reaching them from the Trident. Lady Stoneheart can retake the Tully castle. There are still those that are loyal to the Tullys in the castle, cooks, servants, stable boys and such those the Lannisters wouldn't think about when thinking about someone turning against them. The singer in inside of the castle as well. All they have to get one gate open and it's game over. Hell you could use to the small folk to attack the castle. They love Edmure he let them inside of the Castle when there was war in Riverlands. While Lady Stone heart can save her fighters for the Twins. Which as we have seen can be something of a mess when guest are coming and going. The perfect way inside of the castle is the same ploy that the Hound and Arya were going to use. Simple sack the castle from the inside and free the Northern lords that are there. Lord Bracken is going to have go somewhere with winter on. Why not leave him in charge of the Twins and gets him out of the Blackwood's faces for awhile while they are holding. That's all this really is it's a holding pattern. While word gets to jon, the lady searches for Arya and the mad mouse looks for Sansa. They are resetting the deck.

Now how do you sack the West? From the Crag/forces and other castles under Northern control send them to the Golden Tooth, that place that Robb wanted to use to get Tywin Lannister. Well Set your men there, Send a call to arms to the Golden Tooth that the Rock or Lannisport is under attack(ironborn, they are attacking everywhere else and Isle is right there it wouldn't be out of Euron's nature) Get the Golden tooth to muster and take out the force right there and then. Then from the Golden Tooth send a message to the Rock about the Trident Lords holding a siege or attack. When the Rock rides out ride hard for Lannisport. There is the West in three moves. Then it's like I said a matter of holding. Once all of the major lannister forces are taken care of go castle to castle and take them out. Leave those castles that lie to the South like Silverhill and Crakehall. All those that are close to the Golden Tooth, and send the Lannister fleet or ship in port to take Fair Castle and Kayce. That's how you take the West. Remember last and for most it's on it's last legs in terms of forces and most of it's forces are far from home thanks to the brotherhood and bandits in the woods.

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Didn't Robb leave a garrison of Northerns at the Crag? Also, what happened to those two castles that Robb took in the West did he surrender them back to the Lannister's before the RW or are they still in Northern Hands. Don't forget that the BWB is split, possibly working at cross agendas or seemingly cross purposes. Along with there are other reminates of Robb's foot floating around the Trident regions, along with there were alot of Trident bannerman missing from the siege of Riverrun. Mallister is pinned up in Seaguard, and Bracken and Blackwood were having their own feigned siege. To keep the Lannister forces in the Trident as they set up their positions. They are using the small folk via the brotherhood and whores as a human raven information system. Notice the queen of whores was with Frey when he was hung not a days ride from the Twins. Then again Bracken is fucking another whore when Jamie comes upon him she even takes the time to introduce herself, while the Queen of whores also makes sure to introduce herself to Jamie. Hint Hint almost like the author is telling use that all whore are working for her.

The Westerlings themselves abandoned the Crag because they were pledged to Robb's cause and it would not have been safe to stay - I can't think why Robb would have left anybody else there. It is common sense to think that Robb would not have left any garrisons in enemy territory, he was leaving for the North and was surely not going to return before Spring so such garrisons would have come under siege from Lannister forces with no chance of relief.

Feigned Siege? You don't fake people in a besieged castle starving. Nor corpses.

That's why the Blackfish set up the siege of Riverrun. To bring the all of the Western's remain forces and allies to one place. Freys cut off from help by the Tumblestone, while the Western forces/Trident allies sit in the middle of the rivers while on the other side sat Jamie's arms and whatever other western forces. All the Blackfish was doing was holding, typical of his personality, being stubborn and defiant. Yet he told Jamie to his face that he was going to continue his nephew's war and the direwolf of house stark was still seen at Riverrun and at the Blackwood siege! Yet who are they fighting for? Sansa's a lannister and married to the Imp disappeared and attained for the murder of the king! That's high treason and regicide boys and girls. Bran and Rickon/Arya are all believed to be dead, so who's left? Jon Snow that's who and how happens to know about a certain will? Edmure Tully, and Mallister. Simple matter of sending a raven(human or winged) before the Freys set up the siege. Mallister only bent the knee because he wanted his heir back and didn't want to see him hanged. That doesn't stop him for still once they left(frey) for them to coordinate with the various lords of the Trident and those that survived the Red Wedding/escaped to work with the Brotherhood (they also know ways that honest men like lords don't know poacher roads and such.) Who didn't die at Duskendale, Maidenpoole, the Battle of Green forks.

Now I am really curious, what Government still rules the Confederacy in the Southern states of America? Because I've seen the films and watched the tv and know that people still display the Confederacy banner. So those people must all be in on a conspiracy that agrees who is the legal President of the Confederacy - right?

Or maybe, just maybe, people use symbols (flags/banners) as symbols of defiance? Even when the cause is lost, they can still express their feelings for that cause through those symbols. The Blackfish carried on flying the Stark banner to show defiance to the men who murdered his nephew, he didn't know anything about Robb's will as he had not been in contact with Edmure then.

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I wasn't sure if the castle was abandoned or not nor was I sure about a garrison in the other two castles that he took in the west.



You are totally missing the point about hidden messages and such so I really don't think there is much more to talk about. The cause isn't lost. The Trident is regrouping. Just so you know if I'm right I'm going to plaster the biggest I told you so ever.



The show isn't dogma by any stretch, but Robb's last battle he was planning an attack on Casterly Rock. You have all these other forces that appear to be broken, but what's that line from dance even a broken sword can be reforged?! Just because they seem leaderless and helpless doesn't mean they aren't still dangerous. The Blackfish loose is ten times more dangerous then him on the wall. Him and the brotherhood who knows all the hidey holes. Those men that came back with Bolton aren't all of the remains of the men that Robb took south with him. The Trident lords didn't muster all of their fighting men either. All isn't lost and that's the point. Hell Jamie and his cousin even said that most of the Trident lords were still wolfish at heart. So I ask you where are the rest of the river lords at either the siege of Blackwood or Riverrun. There were riverlords there that had son's in Jamie's charge. Boys that heard all of Jamies plans and such. Only for Jamie to be taken captive by Brianne removing the threat to their sons by removing the Kingslayer. Something is going on with the trident lords than appears.



You know you are making my arguement for me. About symbols of defiance and such. So....... There is that. I just find it interesting that there are 3 sieges going on at the same time. It's bleeding the dregs of the western forces, while Cat is keeping them in the Trident with attacks such as the Hanging of Frey a days ride from the Twins, the attack on Salt's pan. There is a wedding happening soon with the Freys. There's the whores and the miss information that was being passed along to the Lannister Trident heads about Lady Stoneheart


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I don't buy for a second that Cat "poisoned" BF's mind against Jon or anything like that. As Apple said before, probably an element of protesting too much. Even if Cat did go around complaining about Jon, you'd think that'd be balanced out by Robb's love for Jon. I'd have to imagine that BF had a conversation or 2 about Jon with Robb.



I always got the sense during that scene that BF was basically just messing with Jaime. Like, to the point where you can't take anything he says remotely seriously. I don't know if he's purposely misdirecting Jaime away from Robb or rather just screwing with him, but either way, I don't think his hate for Jon is genuine.


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