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Barristan sent to inhibit Dany's rise to power


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#1 Trogdor Targaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 01:46 PM

Before Ser Barristan came along, Ser Jorah was Dany's most trusted advisor. This position was well deserved BECAUSE, despite his past of informing on her, he demonstrated his devotion by saving her life, and giving good counsel consistently, despite the opportunity granted for him to go home.

 

Barristan is a good warrior, certainly suitable as her guard, and with his presence beside her many who would have denied her at first will now be more accepting of her as queen in westeros. However, Barristan has been institutionalized as Kingsguard and doesn't know how to think outside the box of his oaths and honor, and if his advice were taken, Dany would never have acquired her unsullied, would have gone back to Illyrio, probably married aegon and would have had no ability to exercise her own will as she would be a queen by name, not by power, as she would have accomplished nothing but providing the dragons.

 

Varys probably didn't expect Jorah's allegiance to swing as far as it did toward Dany. It would seem perfectly reasonable that Jorah would not only accept the pardon, but maybe even try to claim the lordship for himself, being as close to her as he was. It was probably a twist in the plans for him to choose a horse from Drogo as his reward instead and remain in exile, as his letters became more few and far between then eventually stopping all together. In the show we see one of Varys "little birds" inform Barristan of Jorah's pardon, though we know from the books that Varys, "supports" Danny. Could be that the reason Illyrio sent Belwas and Barristan in the books was to divide her from the only counsel she has had so far that got her anywhere she is now? Barristan didn't have to KNOW that he was being used like that, but it seems apparent that based on the information he learned at the small council from Varys, that he would do everything to get Dany from the closest threat she doesn't even recognize, without realizing that the real threat was himself.

 

Without Jorah around to guide her she has been unable to move forward because there is no creative strategy, and she would become dependent upon the aid of Illyrio, and by association Aegon, so her Dragons can be used for his conquest of the seven kingdoms. He who holds the king holds the kingdom, well Illyrio and/or Varys are still trying to get the rightful queen firmly into their grasp. 

 



#2 aryagonnakill#2

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 01:56 PM

Well in a way I agree with you, Ilyrio definitely sent Barristan and Groleo and Belwas to bring Dany back to him and keep her as his pawn, perhaps even intending Barristan to call out Ser Jorah, but I don't think they had any inclination at all that she was going to be doing what she did and I do not think it was a direct attempt to stop it, just to move his own plans along.



#3 Trogdor Targaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 02:10 PM

What I'm most suggesting is that he was sent to split her and Jorah up, because he has been serving too well as an advisor, and that after he left her progress slowed dramatically.



#4 House Hendrix of Rock

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 02:28 PM

Nope, Brave Barry isn't a useful person for that line of work, to honorable and not cunning (enough).
+ "she would have accomplished nothing BUT PROVIDING THE DRAGONS" .. You lost me with that statement!

#5 BearQueen87

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 02:33 PM

Why would Illyrio/Varys want Dany slowed down, though? When "Griff" talks with the Golden Company, they seem upset that the plans I and V hatch keep changing, because Varys and Illyrio can't predict what Dany will do next. They didn't think she'd stay and rule in Meeren. They sent Groleo to fetch Dany back to Illyrio so that she and (f)Aegon could take the sell swords and begin their attack on Westeros. It was Dany who decided to take Slaver's Bay instead.

 

And Selmy, while a great knight, doesn't do the game of thrones like the others. You get a sense of that in his POVs in ADWD; he says that it's war he understands, battle and strategy, not the whispers and intrigue that he must deal with after Dany's flight from the Pit.


Edited by BearQueen87, 13 July 2014 - 02:33 PM.


#6 Trogdor Targaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 07:05 PM

Nope, Brave Barry isn't a useful person for that line of work, to honorable and not cunning (enough).
+ "she would have accomplished nothing BUT PROVIDING THE DRAGONS" .. You lost me with that statement!

Okay, i might have lost myself at the end there, too. This is the most I've ever put into a topic yet and I think I was too worried about presentation to keep track of my thoughts. I guess a better contribution to have mentioned was the added validity she would give (f)Aegon.

 

Why would Illyrio/Varys want Dany slowed down, though?

Because each step she takes in her course is a step away from I and V, which is why the plans so consistently keep changing.

 

 

 

And Selmy, while a great knight, doesn't do the game of thrones like the others. You get a sense of that in his POVs in ADWD; he says that it's war he understands, battle and strategy, not the whispers and intrigue that he must deal with after Dany's flight from the Pit.

This is actually my point. He is a great soldier, but not the advisor that Dany needs to move toward her goal. The advisor who helped her most to get where she is has been separated from her by Barristan. Varys or Illyrio could have told him that Jorah was on their side because he demonstrated devotion to her, but they didn't. Why? because they don't want Dany to be able to take Westeros without their assistance, so they're not REALLY on her side.



#7 BearQueen87

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 07:17 PM

 

This is actually my point. He is a great soldier, but not the advisor that Dany needs to move toward her goal. The advisor who helped her most to get where she is has been separated from her by Barristan. Varys or Illyrio could have told him that Jorah was on their side because he demonstrated devotion to her, but they didn't. Why? because they don't want Dany to be able to take Westeros without their assistance, so they're not REALLY on her side.

 

Ok. I think I was confused about what you were proposing. I agree that Jorah was a good adviser to Dany and I do find myself always wondering what ADWD would have looked like with Jorah still there. And I agree that Illyrio and Varys are not actually on Dany's side, but on their own. This is their power play.

 

But they had no way of predicting what Dany was going to do with Jorah. In fact, she's ready to forgive him when he get back from the sewers; it's Jorah and his refusal to own up to his mistakes that causes Dany to send him away. They couldn't possibly predict that Jorah wouldn't fall to his knees and beg forgiveness. Actually, you almost expect him to because of how devoted he is to her. He doesn't, under any circumstances, want to leave her side. So even if they did send Selmy to break up with dynamic duo, they can't predict how Dany will react to the news because Dany is...unpredictable. Hence not going back to Pentos.



#8 JoeyBanana

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 07:20 PM

Jorah was there to primarily protect Viserys. Dany was safe with Drogo, he wouldn't just let his new wife get murdered or killed. Jorah failed and now Dany was their big price. They needed reliable guards and who better than Barry? Jorah could not be trusted. 

 

Illyrio was likely going to "set her straight" himself in Pentos once she had arrived. The sudden departure to Slaver's Bay was impossible to anticipate. 


Edited by JoeyBanana, 13 July 2014 - 07:20 PM.


#9 Winterfell is Burning

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 07:49 PM

The reasons to send Barristan to Dany are much simpler: he's too valuable of an asset to let him go to Stannis, and they can't send him to Aegon because they don't know if he'll buy the story or not.



#10 BearQueen87

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 07:52 PM

The reasons to send Barristan to Dany are much simpler: he's too valuable of an asset to let him go to Stannis, and they can't send him to Aegon because they don't know if he'll buy the story or not.

 

I agree that's the most likely. The first situation is what Tyrion's worried about when he discusses the dismissal with Cersei--what will it look like when Barristan the Bold shows up with one of the other Baratheon's? And the second situation would take quite a bit of convincing. I don't think Barristan trust Varys that much anyway, so it would quite a leap to trust the Spider that Rhaegar's dead son is *shock* alive. But Dany is a known entity; he knows she's out there. It's just a matter of seeing if he wants to serve.


Edited by BearQueen87, 13 July 2014 - 07:53 PM.


#11 Victor227

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 08:50 PM

Barristan is sent to Dany pre-Meereen, heck, pre-Unsullied.

 

It makes sense that Varys and Illyrio intended him to be the slate-clearer. He had dirt on Jorah that would destroy his influence, and they needed Daenerys (well, they needed her dragons anyway). When Dany arrived in Qarth, and Jorah sent that final report, it's pretty clear that she was outside of the conspiracy's control.

 

When the news of dragons arrived, Illyrio sent three ships, and the most prestigious knight in Westeros. What he must have intended was to get Dany back under his control with her dragons, in order to use them as a tool. however, Barristan hid his identity, and kept hiding it, having his own agenda in first 'evaluating' Dany. What's more, they erred in not telling Barristan that the Golden Company was prepared to be the line of attack to claim the throne.

 

That's the trouble with Varys and Illyrio. They rely on manipulation, but never tell anyone anything they need to draw conclusions in their favor.



#12 BearQueen87

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 09:04 PM

Barristan is sent to Dany pre-Meereen, heck, pre-Unsullied.

 

It makes sense that Varys and Illyrio intended him to be the slate-clearer. He had dirt on Jorah that would destroy his influence, and they needed Daenerys (well, they needed her dragons anyway). When Dany arrived in Qarth, and Jorah sent that final report, it's pretty clear that she was outside of the conspiracy's control.

 

When the news of dragons arrived, Illyrio sent three ships, and the most prestigious knight in Westeros. What he must have intended was to get Dany back under his control with her dragons, in order to use them as a tool. however, Barristan hid his identity, and kept hiding it, having his own agenda in first 'evaluating' Dany. What's more, they erred in not telling Barristan that the Golden Company was prepared to be the line of attack to claim the throne.

 

That's the trouble with Varys and Illyrio. They rely on manipulation, but never tell anyone anything they need to draw conclusions in their favor.

 

That's a big risk on Illyrio and Varys though. They have to trust that when Dany finds out about Jorah, she'll cut him loose. What if she didn't? What if Barristan revealed the dirt and Dany simply shrugged and went on as she did in the text? And what if she was decided to cut Barristan loose instead of Jorah because he spilled secrets?



#13 Victor227

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 12:26 AM

 

That's a big risk on Illyrio and Varys though. They have to trust that when Dany finds out about Jorah, she'll cut him loose. What if she didn't? What if Barristan revealed the dirt and Dany simply shrugged and went on as she did in the text? And what if she was decided to cut Barristan loose instead of Jorah because he spilled secrets?

 

Pretty minor risks really. Even in the worst case scenario, she keeps doing what she's doing. At the time Illyrio sent Barristan and Belwas over to help her, Daenerys hadn't conquered any cities yet, she hadn't raised any armies. She had no money or or power to do either with. She just had her dragons, and Illyrio and Varys are a-wanting those dragons. So Illyrio reaches out with his ships and Barristan. Jorah's outlived his usefulness, so impediment to her or no, Barristan is a man who can out him as a traitor.

 

Really though, as far as slate-clearing goes, it was pretty meek. When Illyrio and Varys got the news of her and her dragons, she was aimless in Qarth. Sending Barristan was a good move regardless, as he has something Daenerys craves far more than anything else, experience with her family first-hand. All the better if he has the tool to get rid of her current adviser and put her firmly back on their track.

 

It's not like Jorah was -that- handy anyway. Daenerys came up with the great Unsullied 'seller beware' plot on her own. Jorah's biggest contribution was saying 'you have to have an army', and her clicking together that she doesn't necessarily have to pay for it.



#14 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 12:31 AM

Varys can't read minds not predict the future. Many actions attributed to Varys depend on him specifically predict people's actions and act according to that. That's not the case with Varys, he adapts when people gets out of his control. Even his main plan: Aegon was going to meet Dany, along with Tyrion, and Aegon is now in Westeros with no dragons. There is no way Varys could have foreseen Tyrion getting away from the group to go and look for some whores, and Aegon deciding to leave early and not waiting for Dany.

#15 Skinchanging Sweetrobin

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 03:34 AM

I think the biggest risk with barristan is alienating the golden company.

#16 Talking Hodor

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 03:39 AM

Daenerys needs both knights in her service, and Tyrion to boot, if she hopes to conquer Westeros.  Barristan is a good bodyguard/knight trainer.  Jorah is an excellent, loyal advisor on military matters, and Tyrion would be good for her as a political expert.  I don't think Barristan or Jorah are hindering her in any way.  Tyrion might, if he ever joins up with her, but that's speculative.



#17 Skinchanging Sweetrobin

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 04:14 AM

Daenerys needs both knights in her service, and Tyrion to boot, if she hopes to conquer Westeros.  Barristan is a good bodyguard/knight trainer.  Jorah is an excellent, loyal advisor on military matters, and Tyrion would be good for her as a political expert.  I don't think Barristan or Jorah are hindering her in any way.  Tyrion might, if he ever joins up with her, but that's speculative.


Jorah and tyrion are both greatly hated in westeros. They seem like liabilities to me.

#18 Mikkel

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 04:29 AM

Jorah and tyrion are both greatly hated in westeros. They seem like liabilities to me.


To anyone likely to care about people's opinions, they would be. For better or worse, I think Dany is getting beyond caring about public (or noble) opinion though.

That said, neither Jorah nor Tyrion is currently in her service, and on the surface they're her enemies (or barely tolerated neutrals at best).

#19 Beorn Snow

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 05:05 AM

When Barry was sent to find Dany noone was expecting her to rise to power. Him and Belwas were meant to protect her so that she´d survive long enough to serve as Aegon´s bride.
 

She has no idea of Illyrio´s schemes, him and Varys in her eyes would come across as the biggest Targaryen loyalists. (How could she suspect anything afoul in the man who married to her to "her sun and stars" and gave her dragon eggs). 

Anyway, Illyrio never suspected she´d do anything but bring on a failed invasion into Westeros, which would leave the kingdom ripe for Aegon´s rescue and taking. Then he never suspected she´d conquer slaver´s bay.



#20 Fire and Beer

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 03:35 PM

The reasons to send Barristan to Dany are much simpler: he's too valuable of an asset to let him go to Stannis, and they can't send him to Aegon because they don't know if he'll buy the story or not.

 

 

What I'm most suggesting is that he was sent to split her and Jorah up, because he has been serving too well as an advisor, and that after he left her progress slowed dramatically.

I think it's both. And also, with Jorah advising her, she was more unpredictable as he was creative and more knowledgable then Barristan, from his time in exile and learning more about the world as opposed to idealistic Barristan, who had been a soldier and follower his entire life. Henceforth without Jorah there advising, she really has only one person she can completely trust: Barristan, who is honourable, but predictable. Just like Ned stark was. ugh

Anyways, I think they couldn't have known that D would exile Jorah but they probably predicted something along that nature would happen. it's reasonable to assume that if any ruler found out that their most trusted advisor had for a time worked for the opposing side, the ruler would most likely punish said advisor ie death or exile, either way resulting in seperation.

 

And as D is really still a child, she needs firm and strategic guidance, something Barristan just can't provide.


Edited by Fire and Beer, 14 July 2014 - 03:36 PM.