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A couple thoughts


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26 replies to this topic

#1 Arya Weinergaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 03:26 PM

A little new here.  I've been reading threads for a while and started replying to a few, but this is my first go on my own.  I know that we now know that the Others are a big a threat and a legitimate concern, but when I was first reading the books I got the impression that the NW and the Wall, and all that, was just a socially constructed method of dealing with a good number of bastards, criminals, exiles, etc.  Did anyone else ever think this?

 

 

I also entertained the idea that Varys and Illiro had some knowledge (spies, prophecy, or other) regarding the Others and the coming war (Iace and Fire), that made them think that getting the last known dragon eggs into the hand of a Targaryen could be useful for that upcoming conflic.  I am now less convinced, but early on I really got the impression that Varys really did think he ahd the realm's best interests at heart.  Not that what he was doing was actually helpful to that end, but that he believed it was, or, at least, justified.

 

 

My last crazy idea relates to the proposed idea of Little Finger having influenced Joffrey to execute Eddard, instead of having him sent to the wall.  I thought it was possible that Little Finger influenced Tywin in the whole Red Wedding and incentivising the Bolton's innevitable betrayal, idea.  Tywin was a devious and cruel man, so he could obviously have come up with it himself.  I know a lot of people think that Little Finger loved (or was at least obsessed with) Catlyn, but at this point it sort of seems like maybe he'd moved on to Sansa.  While Sansa never loved Tyrion, Robb, Catlyn and everyone else's brutal murders would have made her hate the Lannisters all the more and made her all the more egar to run away with someone she didn't really know and didn't have any real reason to think would be any better. 



#2 Mladen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 03:37 PM

1. Given that Others weren't a threat for the past 8000 years, it was to expect that NW would change some of its purpose. It's normal thing when tge reason for their existence is considered gone

2. I believe that Varys and Illyrio have different agendas, but I sincerely doubt that Dany was given those eggs purposefully.

3. I believe that Varys riddle left little to doubt regarding who killed Ned

#3 Ramsay Blow

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 03:43 PM

I've always been under the impression that LF was the one to get Ned killed. While I would love to think that Varys has knowledge of the Others, I just don't think it's true. He's wrapped up in his own game of thrones.

#4 Arya Weinergaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 03:45 PM

1. Given that Others weren't a threat for the past 8000 years, it was to expect that NW would change some of its purpose. It's normal thing when tge reason for their existence is considered gone

2. I believe that Varys and Illyrio have different agendas, but I sincerely doubt that Dany was given those eggs purposefully.

3. I believe that Varys riddle left little to doubt regarding who killed Ned

1.  Well, but to some degree they could have just been stories.  A repurposed NW seems like a possibility, but it seemed to me at the begining like it could have been a mostly contrived way of dealing to extra sons, criminials, and so forth.  Guess not, though.

 

2.  I don't think that he gave them to her for a purpose either, but I also couldn't really came up with any reason why he would give them to her.  They were reportedly extremely valuable.

 

3.  My point wasn't about Ned, though, but rahter if Little Finger had any involvment in the plotting of the Red Wedding.



#5 Arya Weinergaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 03:46 PM

I've always been under the impression that LF was the one to get Ned killed. While I would love to think that Varys has knowledge of the Others, I just don't think it's true. He's wrapped up in his own game of thrones.

 

 

I think so, too.  It was just a possibility that occurred to me.



#6 Mladen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 03:53 PM

1.  Well, but to some degree they could have just been stories.  A repurposed NW seems like a possibility, but it seemed to me at the begining like it could have been a mostly contrived way of dealing to extra sons, criminials, and so forth.  Guess not, though.
 
2.  I don't think that he gave them to her for a purpose either, but I also couldn't really came up with any reason why he would give them to her.  They were reportedly extremely valuable.
 
3.  My point wasn't about Ned, though, but rahter if Little Finger had any involvment in the plotting of the Red Wedding.


1. Well, Wall certainly became way to deal with criminals and other outcasts. It's normal thibg when the purpose of it doesn't seem to be a problem at some point.

2. They were valuable but he never realized how much valuable they actually are. He was giving a gift to the princess, nothing more.

3. Regarding RW, I am not that sure about that. There is nothing to suggest that other than Cat was supposed to survive.

#7 Ramsay Blow

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:02 PM

3.  My point wasn't about Ned, though, but rahter if Little Finger had any involvment in the plotting of the Red Wedding.


Well certainly possible, I think it was just a Tywin-Roose mad genius plan.

#8 Arya Weinergaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:05 PM

1. Well, Wall certainly became way to deal with criminals and other outcasts. It's normal thibg when the purpose of it doesn't seem to be a problem at some point.

2. They were valuable but he never realized how much valuable they actually are. He was giving a gift to the princess, nothing more.

3. Regarding RW, I am not that sure about that. There is nothing to suggest that other than Cat was supposed to survive.

 

 

 

 

1.  I suppose that's true.

2.  I always throught there was something more to it, maybe not that he expected Dany to hatch them, just, something.  I dunno what.

3.  Well, that and Little Finger is a devious, evil little man.



#9 Mladen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:10 PM

2.  I always throught there was something more to it, maybe not that he expected Dany to hatch them, just, something.  I dunno what.
3.  Well, that and Little Finger is a devious, evil little man.


2. I don't think so. I thibk their plans regarding Aegon would be a lot different if they counted on three dragons reappearing

3. Him being devious, evil little man isn't an argument. He isn't guilty of all evils in the world.

#10 Ser Eric

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:13 PM

Well, there is speculation that the one of the red priests foresaw Dany hatching the egg and Illyrio who follows the red god gave the eggs to Dany on that account. Not sure if I believe it but I suppose it's a possibility.



#11 Arya Weinergaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:15 PM

2. I don't think so. I thibk their plans regarding Aegon would be a lot different if they counted on three dragons reappearing

3. Him being devious, evil little man isn't an argument. He isn't guilty of all evils in the world.

 

 

2.  Like I said, I don't think it is so, just that I thought there was somthing more to it.

 

3.  But plots we know he had a hand in (John Arynn and Lannister Stark conflict) show that is is capable of such actions.   If Catlyn was supposed to survive, then the Red Wedding could have further isolated her from her support structure and made him a more appealing option.  Any port in a storm.  If he didn't expect her to survive, or care, the result could have been the same, but with Sansa.



#12 Arya Weinergaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:16 PM

Well, there is speculation that the one of the red priests foresaw Dany hatching the egg and Illyrio who follows the red god gave the eggs to Dany on that account. Not sure if I believe it but I suppose it's a possibility.

 

 

Maybe SHE had to hatch them, and they figured that as Targaryes, she and Aegon would eventually hook up or at least ally.



#13 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:32 PM

 

 

Maybe SHE had to hatch them, and they figured that as Targaryes, she and Aegon would eventually hook up or at least ally.

If Illyrio's word can be believed, Dany was expected to die amongst the Dothraki. I don't think that they had expected the eggs to hatch. It seems that Dany only became important to Illyrio and Varys when she survived the Dothraki, and hatched herself some dragons. That's when she became an active part of their plan, instead of being the pawn she had been before.



#14 Kienn

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:36 PM

Did you skip the prologue when you started reading or something?



#15 Arya Weinergaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:37 PM

If Illyrio's word can be believed, Dany was expected to die amongst the Dothraki. I don't think that they had expected the eggs to hatch. It seems that Dany only became important to Illyrio and Varys when she survived the Dothraki, and hatched herself some dragons. That's when she became an active part of their plan, instead of being the pawn she had been before.

 

 

Was that based on a prophecy or just what that they thought most likely to happen to a soft, naive, sheltered girl when she was no longer sheltered and was sent out into a rugged world with a culture of people who lived a very hard life?



#16 Arya Weinergaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:39 PM

Did you skip the prologue when you started reading or something?

 

 

Good point.  I guess as some point when I was thinking about the Wall I forgot that bit and got wondering what it was that the wall was really for. 



#17 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:50 PM

 

 

Was that based on a prophecy or just what that they thought most likely to happen to a soft, naive, sheltered girl when she was no longer sheltered and was sent out into a rugged world with a culture of people who lived a very hard life?

I think they were just thinking it was most likely what would happen to the naive, shy girl who was send out in the world with the Dothraki, whose culture were so very much unlike what she knew, and which was a very hard life.

 

For as far as I know, Varys and Illyrio are not basing their work on any prophecy at all.



#18 Dorian Martell

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:54 PM

A little new here.  I've been reading threads for a while and started replying to a few, but this is my first go on my own.  I know that we now know that the Others are a big a threat and a legitimate concern, but when I was first reading the books I got the impression that the NW and the Wall, and all that, was just a socially constructed method of dealing with a good number of bastards, criminals, exiles, etc.  Did anyone else ever think this?

 

 

I also entertained the idea that Varys and Illiro had some knowledge (spies, prophecy, or other) regarding the Others and the coming war (Iace and Fire), that made them think that getting the last known dragon eggs into the hand of a Targaryen could be useful for that upcoming conflic.  I am now less convinced, but early on I really got the impression that Varys really did think he ahd the realm's best interests at heart.  Not that what he was doing was actually helpful to that end, but that he believed it was, or, at least, justified.

 

 

My last crazy idea relates to the proposed idea of Little Finger having influenced Joffrey to execute Eddard, instead of having him sent to the wall.  I thought it was possible that Little Finger influenced Tywin in the whole Red Wedding and incentivising the Bolton's innevitable betrayal, idea.  Tywin was a devious and cruel man, so he could obviously have come up with it himself.  I know a lot of people think that Little Finger loved (or was at least obsessed with) Catlyn, but at this point it sort of seems like maybe he'd moved on to Sansa.  While Sansa never loved Tyrion, Robb, Catlyn and everyone else's brutal murders would have made her hate the Lannisters all the more and made her all the more egar to run away with someone she didn't really know and didn't have any real reason to think would be any better. 

That is more than a couple of thoughts.



#19 Arya Weinergaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:55 PM

I think they were just thinking it was most likely what would happen to the naive, shy girl who was send out in the world with the Dothraki, whose culture were so very much unlike what she knew, and which was a very hard life.

 

For as far as I know, Varys and Illyrio are not basing their work on any prophecy at all.

I guess it just made my brain itch, a bit, that the value of the eggs was made evident without an equally clear reason as far as I understood as to why he gave up such a priceless commodity.  As I recall, they were not really the type of thing which would have been all that valuable to the Dothraki.



#20 Arya Weinergaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:56 PM

That is more than a couple of thoughts.

 

 

Idiomatic, not literal.