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Why is Jon more popular than Daenerys - Part II


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#1 David Selig

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 04:56 PM

The first part was fun (http://asoiaf.wester...-than-daenerys/ ), let's continue. ;)


Edited by David Selig, 13 July 2014 - 04:57 PM.


#2 sj4iy

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 05:13 PM

According to most fan polls, he isn't.

Next?

#3 Arya Targaryen

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 05:17 PM

I've just read through the previous thread. Is there a point in opening a new one? It seems to me that the debate is going in circles.

 

My two cents: Jon and Arya are my two favourite characters right now, but it wasn't always so. In AGOT I liked more of them. I couldn't pick one favourite, I liked Ned, Arya, Tyrion, Dany, Jon and Bran equally. It stayed more or less the same until the second part of ASOS. By that time I was totally bored of Dany, lost interest in Tyrion and never really liked Sansa, so that didn't change. In AFFC I started to like Sansa as well, I don't know, why. And from the beginning, I liked Jon more and more, until he ended up my No1. Maybe I just find the Starks' connection to their respective direwolves more interesting than Dany's dragons.

 

So it was a long process, I guess. I like the way Jon thinks, how he keeps searching for solutions, etc. And I never was impressed by Dany's ruling, and altogether, I just don't care. Maybe if she arrives in Westeros and starts interacting with other people, it will change.



#4 PirateVergo

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 05:28 PM

About the last post in the previous thread.

 

 

Daario was worst than the Masters or loving him was worst than being a slaver? 

 

I was actually talking about Khal Drogo who's just as bad as the masters if not worse.



#5 Bryanfury

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 05:44 PM

Dany has a civilian death toll that outstrips everyone except maybe Tywin. Oh, and her slaving murdering huaband Drogo if you consider events prior to AGoT.

Edited by Bryanfury, 13 July 2014 - 05:52 PM.


#6 Elm Tree

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 05:50 PM

See Apple Martini's first post in the first thread. That explains it all, though no one cared to respond to it.



#7 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 05:59 PM

We spent 20 pages discussing their popularity in less than 24 hours. I think the question is pretty much answered... :/

#8 The Doctor's Consort

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:05 PM

I think that Queen of Whores http://asoiaf.wester...erys/?p=6021133 said it perfectly.

 

 

As I have said before  here:

 

Sure Jon has flaws, he is pretty arrogant at the beggining and can't communicate with the others very well, if he could he wouldn't be injured now.
 
First:He puts others before himself. He tries to please the others even if that means that it will cost him something that could been seen from the beggining
"You have five true born children," Jon said. "Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord."
 
Bran saw his father's face change, saw the other men exchange glances. He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment. Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done. The count had come right only because Jon had omitted himself. He had included the girls, included even Rickon, the baby, but not the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.
 
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
 
"The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark," Jon pointed out. "I am no Stark, Father."

 

Second:He help those who are in need: Notable examples Sam,the other recruits,  Alys don't forget how Alys was hunted down 
With him came four mounted men-at-arms, a huntsman, and a pack of dogs, sniffing after Lady Alys as if she were a deer.
, Satin.
 
Third:He sees the big picture. When he allowed the wildlings he knew that that would be an unpopular choice but as Jeor said: 
But we must have known once. The Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose, Tarly. You don't build a wall seven hundred feet high to keep savages in skin from stealing women. The Wall was made to guard the realms of men... and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it.

 

Fourth:He is just. When he had to punish someone he did it after he had give the man the chance to make it right. 
No, thought Jon. You closed that door

 

Fifth:He can play the game. Paper shield and when he adviced Stannis about how he sould treat with the Northeners.
 
Sixth:He is a good person, giving Bran his fish, giving Arya Needle, helping Sam, helping the others NW recruits. He is even nice to Cat
 “It wasn't your fault,” he managed after an awkward silence. Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. “I need none of your absolution, bastard."
even after she is cruel to him he doesn't said anything.
 
Seventh:He is practical. Jon finds the way to solve problems with the resources he has.
 
Eighth:He is willing to take drastic actions even if that means that he had to take unpopular desicions.

Ninth:He is the only one who knows about the real enemy
Night gathers and now my war begins.

 

Tenth:He learns fast.

 

Eleventh:

You have my thanks, Lord Snow. For the half-blind horse, the salt cod, the free air. For hope.

 

Twelfth:He is not afraid to get dirty, he does what needed to be done by his own hands.

 

And yes, there is a reason that there are 12 points.  :D


Edited by Jon's Queen Consort, 13 July 2014 - 06:14 PM.


#9 Ellfoy

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:06 PM

Oh come on ! What's the point to open a second thread ?! It's seem that Jon is more popular than Dany as is Arya and Tyrion and lately others characters like Sansa or Jaime it seems. What's the point in always confronting Dany and Jon ?



#10 Apple Martini

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:12 PM

See Apple Martini's first post in the first thread. That explains it all, though no one cared to respond to it.

 

It's easier to just complain about sexism.



#11 Modelex

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:14 PM

According to most fan polls, he isn't.

Next?

 

Definitely not on this website



#12 Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:15 PM

All I read was the OP in the last thread. But my personal opinion is that Jon is more popular because he is humbler. Dany is very entitled. She wants to take the IT because she believes it is owed to her.

Jon on the other hand mostly just wants to do what's right.


I am a huge Jon & Dany fan so hatred for either of them is hard for me to fathom.

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar, 13 July 2014 - 06:18 PM.


#13 Modelex

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:21 PM

I also find it unfair that Dany is negatively compared to Jon in terms of governing ability

 

Of course Jon does better, he was educated and brought up equally with Robb to rule pretty much. Dany on the other hand, has been taught... well nothing. Except for Viserys' crazy notions, and how to be a piece of meat to be married off that is. Not to mention, running an organization of ~600 people is going to be easier than managing an entire city, trying to proxy manage another city, all while half of Essos is arming against you. All things considered, she could have done much worse

 

And another thing, sorry her moral compass isn't completely flawless? How is she supposed to be brought up in a "morally correct" way, when her only caregiver for the majority of her life was insane? I think Dany is held to an extremely high standard given her background

 



#14 The Doctor's Consort

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:28 PM

How is she supposed to be brought up in a "morally correct" way, when her only caregiver for the majority of her life was insane? 

Sam say hi! I mean maybe Randyll wasn't Viserys' scale of craziness but his moral compass is definitely broken.



#15 Apple Martini

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:34 PM

I also find it unfair that Dany is negatively compared to Jon in terms of governing ability

 

Of course Jon does better, he was educated and brought up equally with Robb to rule pretty much. Dany on the other hand, has been taught... well nothing. Except for Viserys' crazy notions, and how to be a piece of meat to be married off that is. Not to mention, running an organization of ~600 people is going to be easier than managing an entire city, trying to proxy manage another city, all while half of Essos is arming against you. All things considered, she could have done much worse

 

And another thing, sorry her moral compass isn't completely flawless? How is she supposed to be brought up in a "morally correct" way, when her only caregiver for the majority of her life was insane? I think Dany is held to an extremely high standard given her background

 

 

The thing is, Dany is not owed a throne. It's not her fault that she didn't have a better upbringing and education, true. But in an ideal world our leaders are people who have been educated properly and who are aware of what they know and what they don't know. When people's lives are on the line, "Cut her some slack, she has no training for this kind of thing" doesn't cut it. It's precisely because she has no training or education that she has no business ruling. Is it fair? No. But life ain't fair.


Edited by Apple Martini, 13 July 2014 - 06:34 PM.


#16 Modelex

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:35 PM

Sam say hi! I mean maybe Randyll wasn't Viserys' scale of craziness but his moral compass is definitely broken.

 

Randyll Tarly abused him, then after it was clear he was not going to be who he wanted him to be and Dickon was born, he stops interacting with Sam altogether

 

Also, Sam had his mother, sisters, septons and tons of other loving and caring people to show him the right way until he was 16. Dany had Willem Darry who died early and then it was her and Viserys bouncing from place to place while he beat her, abused her, and taught her nonsensical things. It just isn't the same


Edited by Modelex, 13 July 2014 - 06:35 PM.


#17 OldGimletEye

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:36 PM

I also find it unfair that Dany is negatively compared to Jon in terms of governing ability

 

Of course Jon does better, he was educated and brought up equally with Robb to rule pretty much. Dany on the other hand, has been taught... well nothing. Except for Viserys' crazy notions, and how to be a piece of meat to be married off that is. Not to mention, running an organization of ~600 people is going to be easier than managing an entire city, trying to proxy manage another city, all while half of Essos is arming against you. All things considered, she could have done much worse

 

And another thing, sorry her moral compass isn't completely flawless? How is she supposed to be brought up in a "morally correct" way, when her only caregiver for the majority of her life was insane? I think Dany is held to an extremely high standard given her background

 

Well, yeah, poor little Dany didn't get to go West Point, followed by a master's in government and economics at Harvard. Boo hoo.
 
You're arguing that we ought to create two different standards when it comes to policy making. One apparently for those that are educated and one for those that are not. But, I am not buying it. And the reason I am not buying it is because it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to the people that have to pay for bad policies.
 
And here is another thing. Dany shows little inclination to learn about the places that she intends to rule. She doesn't seem interested in learning about Mereen or Westeros. With regard to Westeros, she has enough information to know that Viserys was full of shit, yet she really doesn't bother to learn about it. 
 
What in the hell did she do exactly on the trip from Quarth to Astapor?

 

 

The thing is, Dany is not owed a throne. It's not her fault that she didn't have a better upbringing and education, true. But in an ideal world our leaders are people who have been educated properly and who are aware of what they know and what they don't know. When people's lives are on the line, "Cut her some slack, she has no training for this kind of thing" doesn't cut it. It's precisely because she has no training or education that she has no business ruling. Is it fair? No. But life ain't fair.

And of course, this.



#18 sj4iy

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:42 PM

I also find it unfair that Dany is negatively compared to Jon in terms of governing ability
 
Of course Jon does better, he was educated and brought up equally with Robb to rule pretty much. Dany on the other hand, has been taught... well nothing. Except for Viserys' crazy notions, and how to be a piece of meat to be married off that is. Not to mention, running an organization of ~600 people is going to be easier than managing an entire city, trying to proxy manage another city, all while half of Essos is arming against you. All things considered, she could have done much worse
 
And another thing, sorry her moral compass isn't completely flawless? How is she supposed to be brought up in a "morally correct" way, when her only caregiver for the majority of her life was insane? I think Dany is held to an extremely high standard given her background


Many people grow up with shitty parents. That still doesn't give them the right to do terrible things.

#19 The Doctor's Consort

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:43 PM

Randyll Tarly abused him, then after it was clear he was not going to be who he wanted him to be and Dickon was born, he stops interacting with Sam altogether

 

Also, Sam had his mother, sisters, septons and tons of other loving and caring people to show him the right way until he was 16. Dany had Willem Darry who died early and then it was her and Viserys bouncing from place to place while he beat her, abused her, and taught her nonsensical things. It just isn't the same

Not the same of course but that doesn't mean that Sam was at a great place either. If Sam wasn is Dany's state of mind (entitled, brat, shallow ignorant and arrogant) he could be Randyll 2.0. But what he did? He  was able to rise above it and didn't allowed to Randyll to make him like the son he wanted. Viserys isn't an excuse, it could be at the beginning but he is dead for the last 4 books and Dany is the same.



#20 Bryanfury

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:44 PM

I was just thinking Randyll and Sam too. Your upbeinging might be shit but it's still a choice to be a dick. I mean, look at Ramsey? Surely he had a reasonable upbringing but he's a compleee psychopath. And he's quite knowledgeable about all sorts given he probably had the upbringing of a peasant