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Why didn't Yoren lie and say Gendry died?


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13 replies to this topic

#1 GreatGatsby

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 12:38 AM

Yoren should have said to the Goldcloaks that Gendry deserted on the march to the wall or something and died and was buried in one of the unmarked graves. A plausible cover story and one that the goldcloaks can't disprove. Then Arya could have gone safely to the North.

#2 Bryanfury

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 12:43 AM

The goldcloaks saw Gendry. If you're asking about the night that Yoren is killed, that wasn't goldcloaks, it was one of the Lannister raiding parties under Amory Lorch and they weren't looking for Gendry. They have no idea Gendry is being searched for by Cersei and the goldcloaks. There was zero chance that Amory Lorch wasn't going to attack Yoren's group, Nights Watch or no.



#3 Light a wight tonight

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 01:06 AM

The scene has the goldcloaks trying a power play outside their jurisdiction. They'e outside Kings Landing and would have no authority over the Night's Watch on official business anywhere. Their actions are an affront to the Watch and can't be left unchallenged. The Watch doesn't wimp out.

 

As Bryanfury said, Amory Lorch was an unrelated situation which pretty well precluded Arya going safely to the wall, no matter how Joren dealt with the goldcloaks. 



#4 lyannaisalive

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 01:21 AM

I always thought Amory Lorch was sent by Tywin or Cersei to attack and/or arrest the group?



#5 Bryanfury

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 01:23 AM

I always thought Amory Lorch was sent by Tywin or Cersei to attack and/or arrest the group?

Sent by Tywin in the sense that he was part of Gregors forces that are riding around burning and killing everything they can. They weren't looking for Yoren's group, they just stumbled across them and as far as Lorch was concerned, they were to be killed like anyone else they found in the area.



#6 Mikkel

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 03:35 AM

Sent by Tywin in the sense that he was part of Gregors forces that are riding around burning and killing everything they can. They weren't looking for Yoren's group, they just stumbled across them and as far as Lorch was concerned, they were to be killed like anyone else they found in the area.


Pretty much this, Lorch was simply a part of Tywin's favorite M.O.: terror tactics. He didn't care one jot what affiliations the people he came across had, it was all about looting and killing, trying to make sure nobody would dare fuck with Tywin Lannister (or his family) again.

#7 toffeejay

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 06:31 AM

A better solution for Yoren would have been to have killed the three (or four?) of them.

 

He knew they'd come back with more. Damn you Yoren and your honour.

 

--- EDIT --- Just actually read the above comments about Lorch not being connected to it! Still I would have done for them for the insult.


Edited by toffeejay, 14 July 2014 - 06:33 AM.


#8 LionoftheWest

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 07:20 AM

A better solution for Yoren would have been to have killed the three (or four?) of them.

 

He knew they'd come back with more. Damn you Yoren and your honour.

 

--- EDIT --- Just actually read the above comments about Lorch not being connected to it! Still I would have done for them for the insult.

 

And killing a couple of Gold Cloaks will reflect so well on the Watch which is kind of dependent on the favor of various lords and the king. Yoren did the right thing to not back down but neither provide additional reason for hostility towards the Watch. 

 

Pretty much this, Lorch was simply a part of Tywin's favorite M.O.: terror tactics. He didn't care one jot what affiliations the people he came across had, it was all about looting and killing, trying to make sure nobody would dare fuck with Tywin Lannister (or his family) again.

 

No, it was Tywin's favorite strategy to war, which is to win. And that involves hurting his enemies and trying to provoke Robb and Edmure into marching on Harrenhall and so allow Tywin with favorable circumstances for a battle.

 

And given Amory's track record of, you know, for example attacking people in the Crownlands who were fighting for the same side as he was, its not like Amory wasn't above taking an initiative to random violence when the oppertunity presents itself. Watch or not. 



#9 Mikkel

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 07:26 AM

 

No, it was Tywin's favorite strategy to war, which is to win. And that involves hurting his enemies and trying to provoke Robb and Edmure into marching on Harrenhall and so allow Tywin with favorable circumstances for a battle.

 

No, I disagree. Tywin wanted more than just winning (though of course he wanted that, too), he wanted to set an example: Fuck with me, and you'll regret it. This is Tywin's signature move, but that doesn't mean he can't make his terror tactics part of a larger strategy, too.



#10 toffeejay

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 07:35 AM

 

And killing a couple of Gold Cloaks will reflect so well on the Watch which is kind of dependent on the favor of various lords and the king. Yoren did the right thing to not back down but neither provide additional reason for hostility towards the Watch. 

 

 

 

Yeah because killing some Gold Cloaks in the middle of nowhere where nobody will see will cause animosity but disarming one and telling them you're not going to do as they command so they can go back to KL is a smart move too.



#11 Cas Stark

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 07:42 AM

Cause:  badass.  That is all.



#12 Mikkel

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 08:24 AM

 

Yeah because killing some Gold Cloaks in the middle of nowhere where nobody will see will cause animosity but disarming one and telling them you're not going to do as they command so they can go back to KL is a smart move too.

 

Somebody sent out the Gold Cloaks, somebody expected them to return with Gendry (dead or alive), consequently someone would have missed them, and put two and two together. There's no real winning move, but Yoren did pretty well, buying some time without irreparably damaging relations with anyone - hoping it would be enough to avoid further contact with the Gold Cloaks at all. Whether that was a vain hope or not we'll never know, courtesy of Amory Lorch and his charming lot of model citizens.


Edited by Mikkel, 14 July 2014 - 08:25 AM.


#13 LionoftheWest

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 01:47 PM

 

No, I disagree. Tywin wanted more than just winning (though of course he wanted that, too), he wanted to set an example: Fuck with me, and you'll regret it. This is Tywin's signature move, but that doesn't mean he can't make his terror tactics part of a larger strategy, too.

 

I kind of disagree. Tywin's signature is to destroy the leadership of the enemy, which is kind of what most others also does, but burning villages are not the thing that Tywin is famed for.

 

 

Yeah because killing some Gold Cloaks in the middle of nowhere where nobody will see will cause animosity but disarming one and telling them you're not going to do as they command so they can go back to KL is a smart move too.

 

It wasn't per necessity a smart move but the issue is that there were no "win all" button available to Yoren.

 

Either he gives them Gendry and so lose a recruit, makes the Watch look weak and all that, or he kills the Gold Cloaks which brings all manner of problems. Now I don't remember the scene entirely but as it seems to me if a single of those mounted Gold Cloaks got away it would lead to all manner of trouble for the Watch with attacking the crown and all that when they are supposed to be neutral. Furthermore those Gold Cloaks were not just some random patrol and when they don't come back and there precious few rebels in the area their deaths can be attributed to, then suspecion is likely to fall on the Yoren, and so hurt the Watch credibility and favor with the crown.

 

The way Yoren did it he didn't damage the Watch's standing by being either weak or violent, and he could well have hoped to have been able to lose any additional Gold Cloaks when he gets further away from King's Landing.



#14 Acolyte of Radmure

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 01:51 PM

The individual you came after has conveniently died.

It's perfectly reasonable that you will accept this testimony and return to your masters and relay the information no questions asked.