Blaming the Starks!

[OldGimletEye]

I love the Starks, but how exactly will it be Dany going down if it were a Starks/Dany fight? She has dragons and at least one army, no matter how different than Westerosi armies.... The Starks are rather scattered with few resources.

First you are assuming that Dany will control all her Dragons. That is not certain at this point. Secondly, as a practical matter how many miles is it to Winterfell from the Neck and White Harbor(it appears to be about 300 miles or so)? And then how many miles is it from Winterfell to the Wall? Just exactly how does Dany feed her army if she invades the North during Winter? I really doubt she can hold the North with just Dragons.

And then there is the wild card, Bran. Finally, I think there is a lot of things about Dragons that we don't yet, particularly certain types of vulnerabilities.

[The Academic Wolf]

Disagree. Ned still rebelled and helped Robert win his war, regardless of the circumstances. She has reason enough to hate him and House Stark. Do I think she should go after Ned's children? No. Should she ever let them rule the North? Nope

People who say she should forgive the Starks would never do so in her position

So you are saying that rebellion of any kind is never justified? You are saying that the the ruled should always accept the arbitrary and cruel actions of their overlords?

Daenerys does not seem to believe that is the case. If she continues to hate the Starks and want their destruction after (finally) learning the truth about Aerys cruelty and unjustified murder of Rickard and Brandon, I will call her the biggest hypocrite of the series, beating even Tywin Lannister.

Saying that people would not forgive Eddard and the Starks if they were in Daenerys exact situation is at best narrow minded to me- I personally understand why the Starks rebelled. In point of fact, I would feel the need to apologise to the Starks, rather than forgive them.

[LordStoneheart]

Gimlet

I've seen no real indication that Dany will lose control of any of her dragons other than fans knowing that is definitely possible since anything can happen between now and the end. If anything, I've seen the opposite with the prophecies and all. But think about the original conquest. the dragons didn't even march north, and the north didn't even fight. And they're in a much worse condition now than the conquest, so I see no reason to think Dany will even have to invade the north to conquer it. The north is fighting itself right now, with the battle of Winterfell. Plus, the Others coming south.

[Zoravar Singh]

I've seen no real indication that Dany will lose control of any of her dragons other than fans knowing that is definitely possible since anything can happen between now and the end. If anything, I've seen the opposite with the prophecies and all. But think about the original conquest. the dragons didn't even march north, and the north didn't even fight. And they're in a much worse condition now than the conquest, so I see no reason to think Dany will even have to invade the north to conquer it. The north is fighting itself right now, with the battle of Winterfell. Plus, the Others coming south.

Historically, one man only bonds with one Dragon in his lifetime. So, even if she doesn't lose control, the other Dragon riders will not be her slaves and may play to their own whims and fancies. Or she could be the only Dragon rider, but then how will she hold the realm?

[OldGimletEye]

Gimlet

I've seen no real indication that Dany will lose control of any of her dragons other than fans knowing that is definitely possible since anything can happen between now and the end. If anything, I've seen the opposite with the prophecies and all. But think about the original conquest. the dragons didn't even march north, and the north didn't even fight. And they're in a much worse condition now than the conquest, so I see no reason to think Dany will even have to invade the north to conquer it. The north is fighting itself right now, with the battle of Winterfell. Plus, the Others coming south.

Yes, Torren did meet Aegon below the neck which was utterly stupid of him. And yes, the North will be in bad shape. But, if the North refuses to bend, Dany will have to take an army up there and that will be very difficult for her. Because, of the harsh climate conditions, the North doesn't need a lot of men to put up an effective resistance. The conditions will be bad for both sides, but it will work to Dany's disadvantage more.

Also, the fact that Dany is being built up as unstoppable force ought to send up a red flag that perhaps her final victory is not assured.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

If you think about it, the only unifying point of Dany's assets is Dany herself. Take her out of the equation and her army is dissolved, her dragons no more than wild animals following their instincts. Dany's cause is not their cause, their cause is Dany... But she is a person and as such, vulnerable. The Starks, all of them, are now being trained to asymmetrical warfare, even Sansa since the "game" is another means of war. If it comes to a conflict between Dany and Starks (which I very much doubt), I would bet my money on the Starks.

[Modelex]

So you are saying that rebellion of any kind is never justified? You are saying that the the ruled should always accept the arbitrary and cruel actions of their overlords?

Daenerys does not seem to believe that is the case. If she continues to hate the Starks and want their destruction after (finally) learning the truth about Aerys cruelty and unjustified murder of Rickard and Brandon, I will call her the biggest hypocrite of the series, beating even Tywin Lannister.

Saying that people would not forgive Eddard and the Starks if they were in Daenerys exact situation is at best narrow minded to me- I personally understand why the Starks rebelled. In point of fact, I would feel the need to apologise to the Starks, rather than forgive them.

I never said Robert's Rebellion was unjustified, but that for good or ill Ned still rebelled against Dany's family. He helped throw her into friendless exile, why on earth should she forgive him for that when she herself did nothing? She is well justified to continue hating Ned, I never once said that she should hate Ned's kids. She is also well within her rights to strip House Stark of it's lands and titles and put the reminaing Stark children in the homes of a Targaryen loyalist. That is much better than the treatment she or her family recieved from Ned's rebel friends

Why on earth would she be a hypocrite for hating Ned? And sorry Mother Theresa if you would forgive Saint Ned, 99% of people would not. And she should apologize? Wow, Stark bias if I have ever seen it

[ShadowCat Rivers]

She is well justified to continue hating Ned, I never once said that she should hate Ned's kids. She is also well within her rights to strip House Stark of it's lands and titles and put the reminaing Stark children in the homes of a Targaryen loyalist. That is much better than the treatment she or her family recieved from Ned's rebel friends

She might be justified in her mind, but then she should accept and own the very pragmatic risk that all this can backfire very badly on her. If she ever tries such a thing, I won't cry for her if or, more possibly, when she suffers the consequences.

[LordStoneheart]

Modelex, I agree with the general notion that Daenerys shouldn't be expected to easily forgive the people the ousted and forsook her whole family and forced her to grow up in exile, but I generally don't like the "sins of the father" mentality. The Stark children shouldn't be treated bad because of Ned (who has in ways done her some favors). Plus, her father was much worse to the Starks, so that would really be hypocritical to punish them for Eddard's doing yet continue thinking her father was wrongfully betrayed.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Nice list. I don't believe that Dany will ever be willing to learn about the Rebellion so she will not learn anything. However why the eff anyone should care if Dany wil "forget" him? Why they have to spend a second thought on her feelings?

[Mikkel]

I never said Robert's Rebellion was unjustified, but that for good or ill Ned still rebelled against Dany's family. He helped throw her into friendless exile, why on earth should she forgive him for that when she herself did nothing? She is well justified to continue hating Ned, I never once said that she should hate Ned's kids. She is also well within her rights to strip House Stark of it's lands and titles and put the reminaing Stark children in the homes of a Targaryen loyalist. That is much better than the treatment she or her family recieved from Ned's rebel friends

She herself may have done nothing, but neither had Ned - her family started the bloodshed, by killing Rickard and Brandon. So if anyone were justified in pursuing vengeance, it was Ned. And yet he didn't - the entire rebellion was a case of self-preservation taken to extremes.

Note that all this assumes Dany learns what truly went down, rather than the propaganda-filled nonsense Viserys fed her (possibly because he didn't know better, but that doesn't make it any less wrong). If she doesn't learn, or refuses to listen when given the opportunity, well... that's going to make things difficult.

Why on earth would she be a hypocrite for hating Ned? And sorry Mother Theresa if you would forgive Saint Ned, 99% of people would not. And she should apologize? Wow, Stark bias if I have ever seen it

Wow, you polled everyone, and 99% said no to forgiving Saint Ned? Impressive :P Interestingly, 95% of all statistics of this sort are made up on the spot in order to mask one's personal opinion as a commonly held one.

yes naturally I'm aware of the irony, that's the whole point

[The Academic Wolf]

I never said Robert's Rebellion was unjustified, but that for good or ill Ned still rebelled against Dany's family. He helped throw her into friendless exile, why on earth should she forgive him for that when she herself did nothing? She is well justified to continue hating Ned, I never once said that she should hate Ned's kids. She is also well within her rights to strip House Stark of it's lands and titles and put the reminaing Stark children in the homes of a Targaryen loyalist. That is much better than the treatment she or her family recieved from Ned's rebel friends

Why on earth would she be a hypocrite for hating Ned? And sorry Mother Theresa if you would forgive Saint Ned, 99% of people would not. And she should apologize? Wow, Stark bias if I have ever seen it

Stark biased because in this case because the Starks have every right to demand an apology. Aerys was wrong, and basically murdered two Starks, demanded the head of another, and allowed his son to kidnap a fourth (from the Starks point of view).

Your argument is inconsistent. If Daenerys should strip the Starks of their lands and titles, then the Starks have every right to execute Daenerys for the murder and attempted murder of three members of their House. As for hating Eddard. I never said that she should be all warm and fuzzy towards him, but he never actually attempted to kill her or her family. Did he have every right to? Yes. Did he attempt to? No. He in point of fact had a falling out with Robert Baratheon when Tywin presented the bodies of Aegon and Rhaenys. Was Daenerys or Viserys Eddard's concern after RR? No, especially after how his family had been treated.

She would be a hypocrite because she is attempting to reform Meereen to stop the kinds of abuses of power that Aerys committed. She is (or was until that treaty) attempting to end slavery and the positions of absolute power that the rulers have. Sound at all familiar to Eddard, Robert and Jon Arryn attempting to pull down a blood soaked tyrant?

And please, what is with the infantile Mother Theresa? I am glad that I now know where I can find the receptacle of 99% of all people on the face of the Earth's opinion on matters of morality and ethics.

[OldGimletEye]

Stark biased because in this case because the Starks have every right to demand an apology. Aerys was wrong, and basically murdered two Starks, demanded the head of another, and allowed his son to kidnap a fourth (from the Starks point of view).

Your argument is inconsistent. If Daenerys should strip the Starks of their lands and titles, then the Starks have every right to execute Daenerys for the murder and attempted murder of three members of their House. As for hating Eddard. I never said that she should be all warm and fuzzy towards him, but he never actually attempted to kill her or her family. Did he have every right to? Yes. Did he attempt to? No. He in point of fact had a falling out with Robert Baratheon when Tywin presented the bodies of Aegon and Rhaenys. Was Daenerys or Viserys Eddard's concern after RR? No, especially after how his family had been treated.

She would be a hypocrite because she is attempting to reform Meereen to stop the kinds of abuses of power that Aerys committed. She is (or was until that treaty) attempting to end slavery and the positions of absolute power that the rulers have. Sound at all familiar to Eddard, Robert and Jon Arryn attempting to pull down a blood soaked tyrant?

And please, what is with the infantile Mother Theresa? I am glad that I now know where I can find the receptacle of 99% of all people on the face of the Earth's opinion on matters of morality and ethics.

Yeah, well, if Dany's father had been Charles Manson, some Danystans would argue that Dany would be justified in hating Sharon Tate and the police officer that arrested old Charlie.

[LordStoneheart]

JQC, Dany already has shown willingness to learn about the truth of the rebellion, she just wasn't able to handle it when Barristan first brought it up. I find that understandable, and to use the above analogy, it would be like a 15 year old learning her father was Charles Manson. And she definitely believed him, as she is pondering whether or not she has inherited the madness (which is actually proof in favor that she hasn't.)

I would also like to point out that we as readers still don't know the "truth" of the rebellion yet, so perhaps just a little empathy? :p

[Jon's Queen Consort]

JQC, Dany already has shown willingness to learn about the truth of the rebellion, she just wasn't able to handle it when Barristan first brought it up. I find that understandable, and to use the above analogy, it would be like a 15 year old learning her father was Charles Manson. And she definitely believed him, as she is pondering whether or not she has inherited the madness (which is actually proof in favor that she hasn't.)

I would also like to point out that we as readers still don't know the "truth" of the rebellion yet, so perhaps just a little empathy? :P

Come on. We both know that she is the blood of the dragon. Do not presume to teach her lessons. She is unwilling to hear the truth because she thought that what she would hear would be how heroic her family was and how terrible and treacherous the Rebels were.

The Targs killed people because Rhaegar couldn't keep his pants on. No sympathy or empathy for almost none of them.

[Zoravar Singh]

Come on. We both know that she is the blood of the dragon. Do not presume to teach her lessons. She is unwilling to hear the truth because she thought that what she would hear would be how heroic her family was and how terrible and treacherous the Rebels were.

The Targs killed people because Rhaegar couldn't keep his pants on. No sympathy or empathy for almost none of them.

:agree: . Now waiting for some more great opinions from Danystans.

[Ingelheim]

A "reasonable course of action" doesn't seem to be first (or second, or third...) on her list as of the end of ADWD though.

Yep.

[BastardlyRock]

Dany well may end up on the IT by the end, she may be successful in her conquering of Westeros, but she has some hard truths coming her way, and I'm praying she learns them, regardless of her role in fighting the Others.

[Modelex]

Stark biased because in this case because the Starks have every right to demand an apology. Aerys was wrong, and basically murdered two Starks, demanded the head of another, and allowed his son to kidnap a fourth (from the Starks point of view).

Your argument is inconsistent. If Daenerys should strip the Starks of their lands and titles, then the Starks have every right to execute Daenerys for the murder and attempted murder of three members of their House. As for hating Eddard. I never said that she should be all warm and fuzzy towards him, but he never actually attempted to kill her or her family. Did he have every right to? Yes. Did he attempt to? No. He in point of fact had a falling out with Robert Baratheon when Tywin presented the bodies of Aegon and Rhaenys. Was Daenerys or Viserys Eddard's concern after RR? No, especially after how his family had been treated.

She would be a hypocrite because she is attempting to reform Meereen to stop the kinds of abuses of power that Aerys committed. She is (or was until that treaty) attempting to end slavery and the positions of absolute power that the rulers have. Sound at all familiar to Eddard, Robert and Jon Arryn attempting to pull down a blood soaked tyrant?

And please, what is with the infantile Mother Theresa? I am glad that I now know where I can find the receptacle of 99% of all people on the face of the Earth's opinion on matters of morality and ethics.

They had the right to demand an apology after Aerys executed Brandon and Rickard (and even then that is shaky). They have zero right to demand anything from her now except her Grace's leniency. The Starks already executed their right to try and kill Daenerys, when Ned's rebel associates chased her to Dragonstone. And "he never actually attempted to kill her or her family"? Do you think if Ned reached the capital before Tywin he would have given Aerys a garland of roses? And I love that Ned is a hero for displaying pseudo-conscientous regrets when it was his actions in part, that led to Aegon and Rhaenys being killed. He rebelled and if he did not know that if he wins, the royal family would be killed than he is an even bigger idiot than I already believe him to be. And Dany/Viserys were not Eddard's concern, that's right they were Stannis'

She is reforming Meereen to stop slavery, which is an abuse of human rights moreso than that of power. It strikes a personal chord with her because she was sold. And Eddard, Robert and Jon Arryn did much more than pull down one tyrant, they contributed to the destruction of her entire house which is much more than just "the pure just rebels taking down the evil Mad King"

And it is common sense that no one is going to forgive some stranger who helped make your life miserable. Life isn't Stark biased like these novels are

Modelex, I agree with the general notion that Daenerys shouldn't be expected to easily forgive the people the ousted and forsook her whole family and forced her to grow up in exile, but I generally don't like the "sins of the father" mentality. The Stark children shouldn't be treated bad because of Ned (who has in ways done her some favors). Plus, her father was much worse to the Starks, so that would really be hypocritical to punish them for Eddard's doing yet continue thinking her father was wrongfully betrayed.

Ned didn't do her any favors whatsoever. Did he help make Dany's life better in any way? No. Was he even successful in stopping Robert from trying to assasinate her? No

Stark children won't be treated badly. Living in the nobleman's home is not a bad life at all (it'd probably be better than Winterfell the burnt ruin). This is standard fare for the children of rebels, they won't have to go around the Free Cities and have to sell Ned's sword to make ends meet. And her father was betrayed by all the laws of Westeros

Come on. We both know that she is the blood of the dragon. Do not presume to teach her lessons. She is unwilling to hear the truth because she thought that what she would hear would be how heroic her family was and how terrible and treacherous the Rebels were.

The Targs killed people because Rhaegar couldn't keep his pants on. No sympathy or empathy for almost none of them.

:agree: . Now waiting for some more great opinions from Danystans.

“I want to know. I never knew my father. I want to know everything about him. The good and … the rest.”

[Jon's Queen Consort]

“I want to know. I never knew my father. I want to know everything about him. The good and … the rest.”

In Storm she claims that she does wanted but in Dance she shows that she doesn't want to know

I am the blood of the dragon. Do not presume to teach me lessons