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Sandor's "Redemption"


Bustard

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I'm posing a hypothetical here. Let's assume:


a.) the gravedigger does turn out to be the Hound


b.) he's somehow recruited by the faith to fight his un-brother in the trial by combat


c.) he wins in true underdog fashion




I'm not saying I buy into this theory. However, if it were to happen, would you even consider it redemption? The Mountain already got what was coming to him via Oberyn, and is now portrayed as a lifeless monster. To me, killing Franken-Gregor would be the equivalent of pissing on his grave. Hell, it might even put him out of his misery.


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Well assuming that happens there's more too it than just killing ungregor. It means the death of Cersei and the Faith possibly opposing Tommen.

True, but does he really give a rat's ass about the Lannisters or who sits on the Iron Throne?

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I'm posing a hypothetical here. Let's assume:

a.) the gravedigger does turn out to be the Hound

b.) he's somehow recruited by the faith to fight his un-brother in the trial by combat

c.) he wins in true underdog fashion

I'm not saying I buy into this theory. However, if it were to happen, would you even consider it redemption? The Mountain already got what was coming to him via Oberyn, and is now portrayed as a lifeless monster. To me, killing Franken-Gregor would be the equivalent of pissing on his grave. Hell, it might even put him out of his misery.

I've always thought the bolded above will turn out to be at least part of Sandor's motivation when he finally confronts the thing that his brother has become (and I think he will). Also, Sandor could be at least somewhat motivated by wanting to protect people in general or maybe even specific people from UnGregor.

Finally, if Sandor confronts UnGregor I don't really think the idea of him winning would be a long shot or "in underdog fashion". After all, the one time we saw Sandor cross swords with his brother Sandor didn't really seem to have much trouble handling him at all.

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True, but does he really give a rat's ass about the Lannisters or who sits on the Iron Throne?

He probably isn't a big fan of the Lannisters and would just get a kick out of ruining their plans. However, if he is alive his entire character and motivations may be different so who can say.

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One thing I need clarification on though. Is the church itself accusing Cersei or is Osney Kettleback the accuser? If it's the latter doesn't he need to fight ungregor? When people have named champions in the past it's because they were unable to fight. Cersei, Lysa, Tyrion for example but Osney is a trained knight.


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One thing I need clarification on though. Is the church itself accusing Cersei or is Osney Kettleback the accuser? If it's the latter doesn't he need to fight ungregor? When people have named champions in the past it's because they were unable to fight. Cersei, Lysa, Tyrion for example but Osney is a trained knight.

That's a good question. Anyone who knows better please correct me, but my impression is that it was Cercei against Margaery and, when certain things came to light while the Church was investigating that, it became the Church against Cercei :dunno:

So, Margaery would need a champion if she requested trial by combat and her champion would be battling Cercei's champion UnGregor. Also, the Church would need a champion to battle Cercei's champion UnGregor if she were to request a trial by combat.

Are these two trials by combat certain to happen or are they only possibilities at this point in the story? :dunno:

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That's a good question. Anyone who knows better please correct me, but my impression is that it was Cercei against Margaery and, when certain things came to light while the Church was investigating that, it became the Church against Cercei :dunno:

So, Margaery would need a champion if she requested trial by combat and her champion would be battling Cercei's champion UnGregor. Also, the Church would need a champion to battle Cercei's champion UnGregor if she were to request a trial by combat.

Are these two trials by combat certain to happen or are they only possibilities at this point in the story? :dunno:

Well it's already confirmed that Margaery is going to do a trial by judge since the evidence against her is so weak. Cersei will have a trial by combat and after looking it up Osney is already sentenced to death for the murder of the previous high septon so I think you're right about the faith choosing a champion.

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That's a good question. Anyone who knows better please correct me, but my impression is that it was Cercei against Margaery and, when certain things came to light while the Church was investigating that, it became the Church against Cercei :dunno:

So, Margaery would need a champion if she requested trial by combat and her champion would be battling Cercei's champion UnGregor. Also, the Church would need a champion to battle Cercei's champion UnGregor if she were to request a trial by combat.

Are these two trials by combat certain to happen or are they only possibilities at this point in the story? :dunno:

No, originally it would have been the Iron Throne against Margaery, but Cersei persuaded the Faith to judge Margaery instead. And the Faith is also going to judge Cersei. So it's not Cersei vs Margaery. It's Cersei vs the Faith and Margaery vs the Faith

As of the aDwD epilogue, Margaery stands to be judged by seven judges of the Faith, while Cersei chose trial by battle. So the Faith should provide a champion to fight UnGregor

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I'm posing a hypothetical here. Let's assume:

a.) the gravedigger does turn out to be the Hound

b.) he's somehow recruited by the faith to fight his un-brother in the trial by combat

c.) he wins in true underdog fashion

I'm not saying I buy into this theory. However, if it were to happen, would you even consider it redemption? The Mountain already got what was coming to him via Oberyn, and is now portrayed as a lifeless monster. To me, killing Franken-Gregor would be the equivalent of pissing on his grave. Hell, it might even put him out of his misery.

Can you have redemption without a mea culpa? If Sandor does not own up to any of his crimes and misdeeds is it really redemption? Killing his brother is a goal he's had since he was a little boy; this is just his wish coming to fulfillment. This is why I think UnGregor will win, but then become some sort of hell-on-earth monster x10 and that's when Sandor will be sent after him.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but what must Sandor 'redeem'... The Brotherhood put him on trial and all the charges were false, riding down the butchers boy was an order from a prince.

I don't think he needs to redeem himself of anything...

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Well it's already confirmed that Margaery is going to do a trial by judge since the evidence against her is so weak. Cersei will have a trial by combat and after looking it up Osney is already sentenced to death for the murder of the previous high septon so I think you're right about the faith choosing a champion.

No, originally it would have been the Iron Throne against Margaery, but Cersei persuaded the Faith to judge Margaery instead. And the Faith is also going to judge Cersei. So it's not Cersei vs Margaery. It's Cersei vs the Faith and Margaery vs the Faith

As of the aDwD epilogue, Margaery stands to be judged by seven judges of the Faith, while Cersei chose trial by battle. So the Faith should provide a champion to fight UnGregor

Thanks! I just couldn't remember if either Cercei or Margaery had actually requested a trial by combat yet? So, it will just be Cercei and UnGregor will definitely be her champion - she has no one else (loved Jaime burning that letter) :D

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Correct me if I'm wrong but what must Sandor 'redeem'... The Brotherhood put him on trial and all the charges were false, riding down the butchers boy was an order from a prince.

I don't think he needs to redeem himself of anything...

No where near as horrible as the Mountain. I think it's a personal redememption. He was driven by hatred. Like Elder Brother said....

I know a little of this man Sandor Clegane. He was prince Joffrey's sworn shield for many a year, and even here we would hear tell of his deeds, both good and ill.

If even half of what we heard was true this was a bitter, tormented soul, a sinner who mocked both gods and men. He served, but found no pride in service. He fought, but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine. He did not love, nor was he loved himself. It was hate that drove him. Though he committed many sins, he never sought forgiveness.

Where other men dream of love, or wealth, or glory, this man Sandor Clegane dreamed of slaying his own brother, a sin so terrible it makes me shudder just to speak of it. Yet that was the bread that nourished him, the fuel that kept his fires burning. Ignoble as it was the hope of seeing his brother's blood upon his blade was all this sad and angry creature lived for...and even that was taken away when Prince Oberyn of Dorne stabbed Ser Gregor with a poisoned spear.

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Can you have redemption without a mea culpa? If Sandor does not own up to any of his crimes and misdeeds is it really redemption? Killing his brother is a goal he's had since he was a little boy; this is just his wish coming to fulfillment. This is why I think UnGregor will win, but then become some sort of hell-on-earth monster x10 and that's when Sandor will be sent after him.

I would say no. I like Sandor a lot and I hope he gets his redemption. But, he'll never get said redemption until he admits that he has fucked up. I think he has acknowledge some of his screw ups, but yeah, it would be nice to see him plainly acknowledge it.

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One thing I need clarification on though. Is the church itself accusing Cersei or is Osney Kettleback the accuser? If it's the latter doesn't he need to fight ungregor? When people have named champions in the past it's because they were unable to fight. Cersei, Lysa, Tyrion for example but Osney is a trained knight.

I have been saying for a while now, and no 1 has refuted me on it, that even a Targ prince had to fight for himself in the Hedge Knight. This means Kettleblack, and possible also Lancel, and anyone else who has come forward. However, Cersei had the right to demand trial by combat, but the accuser(s) Osney and co, have the right to demand a trial by 7. Just as we saw in Hedge knight. Yet another however, Cersei can only be defended by the Kingsguard and there are not 7 available... so where are we now? Robert strong vs 7? maybe...

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I don't think Sandor will appear at Cersei's trial, I have a sneaking suspicion that (if it happens) Sandor will return after word that Sansa's been captured & put on trial.



Do I think he's on a redemption arc? well yeah, he's already been starting to show his true colours with the Stark girls, whom I remember someone somewhere said he's "protecting" the Stark girls in forgiveness of the death of his own sister. I'm not too sure about that theory, but I thought it was something new.




Sandor's definitely my favourite character in the books, he's the ultimate grey character, hell I'm planning to re-read chapters with The Hound in them.


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A bit off topic, but Sandor fighting Robert Strong is so obviously not going to happen. I find it so annoying.



1. He's wanted for desertion and all sorts of crimes in the Riverlands.



2. Why would he do it? He wouldn't know it's really his brother he'd be fighting, and he's clearly trying to keep a low profile.



3. How would the faith even know where he was? How would they organise it?



In terms of Sandor's redemption, he's already found it. He'll spend the rest of his life in peace, burying the dead in the Riverlands. His entire redemption arc would be ruined if he suddenly decided to become a warrior again.


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No. First of, I don't believe there's any such thing as 'redemption'. Secondly, I think that Sandor's story has ended perfectly on the Quiet Isle. I don't even need any confirmation that he's the Gravedigger.



I think that dragging him back to fight his brother would completely undo his character arc.


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No. First of, I don't believe there's any such thing as 'redemption'. Secondly, I think that Sandor's story has ended perfectly on the Quiet Isle. I don't even need any confirmation that he's the Gravedigger.

I think that dragging him back to fight his brother would completely undo his character arc.

IMO, it depends on what he would be fighting his brother for. If he's fighting Gregor in order to finally kill him, and fulfill his wish since he was a boy, then his "rebirth" story as told by Elder Brother seems really pointless. He would still be driven by hate. Being the Faith's Champion is problematic because I don't know how you kill a Headless-Undead-Man. So if there is a UnGregor vs Gravedigger showdown, it has to be for more noble reasons than Sandor finally getting to kill his brother.

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I've found it bizarre the idea that Sandor would be the champion. If he's alive, he's retired to a live of peace and quiet. His violent persona, the Hound, is behind him. Why would he then go ''ah yeah let's go fight a friggin duel to the death woohooo!''? Plus, he's visibly limping. This is not exactly a combat-ready champion here. His arc is over, whenever he's the gravedigger or not. There's just no point in suddenly having him show up, raring for another go.



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