Sandor's "Redemption"

[Harry the Hair]

I agree that the memory of the kiss is wrong.

ok but you said that she is covering another memory with the fake kiss. My point is that she's not. The rest of it is accurate, it's just her adding stuff to what she remembers.

[ChillyPolly]

ok but you said that she is covering another memory with the fake kiss.

I think that's quite possible - even likely, yes.

[Harry the Hair]

I think that's quite possible - even likely, yes.

Ok I just don't see it. What is it that you think happened instead?

[LongRider]

Ok I just don't see it. What is it that you think happened instead?

She closed her eyes because she thought he was going to kiss her, remember? That's the basis for the unkiss. Now she wants a real kiss.

[ChillyPolly]

What is it that you think happened instead?

He put a knife to her throat.

[ChillyPolly]

She closed her eyes because she thought he was going to kiss her, remember? That's the basis for the unkiss. Now she wants a real kiss.

Maybe she wants one. But all that the text clearly says is that she thinks she already got one. She "remembers" what she thought was about to happen, instead of what actually happened. Probably because her mind has (understandably) blocked what actually happened.

The "unkiss" may be driven as much (or more?) by her fears as by her fantasies.

[Harry the Hair]

He put a knife to her throat.

That was in her POV, she remembers that part. "He'd come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song."

[LongRider]

That was in her POV, she remembers that part. "He'd come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song."

And being he is on an redemption arc, he regrets that and even tells Arya so. But what else happened that night? Oh yes, there was a battle on. Sansa had spent the night cooped up with Cersei and the noble women (and scary Illyn Payne).

The women, including Sansa were all frightened and Sansa was drinking wine. Quite the stressful evening and when she went to her bedchamber she thought the battle was lost. Cersei has told frightening tales of what would happen to them is the battle was lost.

There is more to the story of the Unkiss than just what happened in Sansa's room.

[Harry the Hair]

The "unkiss" may be driven as much (or more?) by her fears as by her fantasies.

I actually agree with that (surprise :P) I think adding the kiss made the night seem a bit more romantic? (for lack of a better word)

[ChillyPolly]

That was in her POV, she remembers that part. "He'd come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song."

No mention of knife to her throat, however. There was a verbal threat too, you may recall.

[RavenKing23]

Umm, wasn't this thread about redemption and not unkisses in unmemories? Nice to know people still get off topic since I've been gone

[Crow's eye in the sky]

Umm, wasn't this thread about redemption and not unkisses in unmemories? Nice to know people still get off topic since I've been gone

Meh, virtually every thread about Sandor ends up fixating on Sansa sooner than later when the rapid SanSans come on the scene.

[Harry the Hair]

No mention of knife to her throat, however. There was a verbal threat too, you may recall.

"threatened to kill me, and made me sing" so my interpretation was that the knife was included in there since he used it to get the song and to threaten her. And just so we stay on topic I think that's what he's gonna have to fix/apologize for to get peace. But that's just my 2 cents, could very well be that Martin is just trolling Sansan fans.

[Harry the Hair]

Meh, virtually every thread about Sandor ends up fixating on Sansa sooner than later when the rapid SanSans come on the scene.

Haters gonna hate. :cool4:

[RavenKing23]

Meh, virtually every thread about Sandor ends up fixating on Sansa sooner than later when the rapid SanSans come on the scene.

Well to be fair Sandor's whole story is fixated on Sansa, so, like, its kinda hard not to, man. . .woman?

[Annara Snow]

She's not really "sexualizing" anything. The encounter was sexual. She's just repressing something. And what she is repressing is the knife to her throat.

First off, putting a knife at someone's throat is not sexual (unless you're into that sort of thing and are doing it for sexual gratification), except in a metaphorical sense.

Secondly, Sansa is not repressing the memory of the knife at her throat. She knows it happened. She just added a kiss to her memory. The first instance of UnKiss is when she thinks in her second chapter in ASOS: "He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song."

The idea that Sansa is making the encounter less disturbing in her mind doesn't work, because, well, she's not making it less disturbing... just kinkier: erotic and romantic while still being violent.

[Le Cygne]

And being he is on an redemption arc, he regrets that and even tells Arya so. But what else happened that night? Oh yes, there was a battle on. Sansa had spent the night cooped up with Cersei and the noble women (and scary Illyn Payne).

The women, including Sansa were all frightened and Sansa was drinking wine. Quite the stressful evening and when she went to her bedchamber she thought the battle was lost. Cersei has told frightening tales of what would happen to them is the battle was lost.

There is more to the story of the Unkiss than just what happened in Sansa's room.

Good points, you have to take it all in context, and she has. That's the point, she's worked through the whole thing. From his side of it, she also understood his fears, the author even included a moment where SHE was afraid of the fire, just before she realized he was there.

If you look at it as a story, the dagger has a lot of meaning, it's not just hey, I think I'll make her sing a song, because I'm in the mood for a song. The song is her prayer for him, he came to her from a ship called Prayer after she prayed to the Mother to "save him" and the song asks the Mother to save him ("save our sons from war, we pray").

And the dagger symbolizes desire, that's throughout the series and Dunk and Egg, it's classic. There's even a song about stealing a sweet kiss with a blade. Dunk thinks of the song as he's digging a grave. And Dunk, the true knight, pulled a dagger on Rohanne, he didn't want her song to remember her by, he wanted her braid to remember her by.

There was a lot going on, and it set up the rest of the story. And after she sang the song, her response is to caress his face, that's huge, too. That's tenderness. And he's got to be remembering that, too. And she realized he was crying and knew that there was more going on there, and I think that's why she wants him to have the kiss.

She wants a do over, and he's not there. She came right out and said she'd been lying awake at night thinking about him, she wished he was there, or that she'd gone with him. She says she won't close her eyes. But where is he? She keeps expecting him to be there, she thought Lothor was Sandor, because she hoped it was him.

And the do over of the hound at the Fingers, the hound is waiting for her in her bed and "she lay down beside him" and he wakes and "kisses" her and she caresses (pets) him. Then she dreams of him. In bed with her and asking for a song. And now she's just working out the details of the story. She wants him to have that kiss.

[Le Cygne]

Well to be fair Sandor's whole story is fixated on Sansa, so, like, its kinda hard not to, man. . .woman?

Thank you, indeed. It's missing much of the story to talk about Sandor without talking about Sansa (or the other way around). They think about each other all the time, throughout the story, we see her perspective, he's in nearly every chapter, even when he's not there, or when he's long gone. And he brings her up all the time.

He sobbed about her while dying, if that's not important, not sure what is. Yes, he was goading Arya, but he was sobbing about Sansa. He was worried about her, that's why he melted down at the inn and nearly lost his life. They are quite important to each other, and that's a big part of why he'll return, no doubt.

Also, I think it may be her POV where he reappears in TWOW, just a hunch...

[LongRider]

RavenKing23, on 30 Jan 2015 - 9:54 PM, said:

Well to be fair Sandor's whole story is fixated on Sansa, so, like, its kinda hard not to, man. . .woman?

Thank you, indeed. It's missing much of the story to talk about Sandor without talking about Sansa (or the other way around). They think about each other all the time, throughout the story, we see her perspective, he's in nearly every chapter, even when he's not there, or when he's long gone. And he brings her up all the time.

He sobbed about her while dying, if that's not important, not sure what is. Yes, he was goading Arya, but he was sobbing about Sansa. He was worried about her, that's why he melted down at the inn and nearly lost his life. They are quite important to each other, and that's a big part of why he'll return, no doubt.

Also, I think it may be her POV where he reappears in TWOW, just a hunch...

Excellent points from both. If Cleganebowl were to happen, why wasn't Sandor crying about not having killed his brother when he had the chance? Oh, because Sansa matters more to him and thoughts of Gregor were not on his mind.

[LongRider]

First off, putting a knife at someone's throat is not sexual (unless you're into that sort of thing and are doing it for sexual gratification), except in a metaphorical sense.

Secondly, Sansa is not repressing the memory of the knife at her throat. She knows it happened. She just added a kiss to her memory. The first instance of UnKiss is when she thinks in her second chapter in ASOS: "He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song."

The idea that Sansa is making the encounter less disturbing in her mind doesn't work, because, well, she's not making it less disturbing... just kinkier: erotic and romantic while still being violent.

:agree:

Edit; Sansa sees through the violence of the encounter and realizes what happened. The Hound reacted out of fear and his thinking Sansa wasn't looking at him out of disgust for his face. He totally regrets that that happened, and she regrets not leaving with him, and now wants to give him a kiss.